OPEN MIND

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP75-00149R000300110001-9
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 26
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: October 5, 1998
• Sequence Number: 1
• Publication Date: November 20, 1966
• Content Type: TRANS

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'RADn1t1jeftEj Fb114
FOR
PROGRAM
DATE
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PUBLIC AFFAIRS STA
Open Mind
November 20, 1966 - 12:00 Noon
FULL TEXT
STATION
CITY
BC-TV FOIAb3b
New York
ANNOUNCER: "Open Mind. Free to examine, to question, to
disagree, with Moderator Eric Goldman, Professor of History at
PriLceton University.
"The subject of today's iisoussion, 'The Warren Report:
An American Controversy.'
"To introduce the participants in today's discussion, Mr.
Goldman."
GOLDMAN: "Hello, ladies and gentlemen.
"Having finished its inquiry into the assassination of Pres
dent Kennedy, the Warren Commission concluded the shots which
killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fire
by Lee Harvey Oswald.
"On the basis of the evidence before the Commission, it con-
eludes that Oswald acted alone. Now, that, to most Americans,
settled the matter.
"A number of European critics were unsatisfied, but their re
marks were generally taken as another outburst of anti-American,
particularly since they tended to make the assassination a resul
of right-wing fanaticism.
"Recently, however, in America, by Americans, the disaussi
has been reopened in important ways. Most notably, by the publi
cation of two books, whose authors are here tonight.
"Our total panel, to my far left, ,NzajlitgLUDe, the attorr
who was asked by Mrs. Marguerite Oswald to represent her son's
interests before the Warren Commission, and who is now the authc
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of 'Rush to Judgment: a Critique of the Warren Commission's
Inquiry.'
"Here to my immediate left, Mr. Wesley J. jeleelaelow, one of
the assistant counsels of the Warren Commission, who is now Pro-
fessor or Law at the University of California in Los Angeles.
"To my immediate right, Mr. Edward J. E a B.A. and
V.A. from Cornell, who is now taking his Ph. . in government at
jarvard. It was as an M.A. student at Cornell that Mr. Epstein
began his inquiry into the Warren Commission, whioh has now re-
sulted in the publication of the volume, 'Inquest: The Warren
Commission and the Establishment of Truth.'
"Next to Mr. Epstein, Mr. Richard Rovere, author of the
Regular Letter from Washington, of the New Yorker magazine, and
one of America's most respected political commentators.
"And, to my far right, MraabertWeaariffjapaaanother of the
assistant counsel of the Warreri-Commission, 0137-at present,
'director of the Legal Aid Society of Cleveland
"Gentlemen, in reading these two books, by Mr. Epstein, and
Plc. Lane, it seemed to me that together they raised three ques-
tions. One, did the Warren Commission do any adequately thorough
job?
"Two, did it adeauately establish that Oswald did the asses-
nation?
"And Three, it he did de it, did 1:; adequately establish thet
eeeald did the assassination alone?
"Those, it seeps to me are the three questions, not raised
- both books, but by the two books combined.
"Am I right, Mr. Epstein, and Mr Lane, in that interpreta-
tion, to begin with?"
EPSTEIN: "I think these are the three main. questions; but
I think there is another question, and that is th difference in
appearance and reality in a government operation, a government cox
mission.
mean,, what appeared to the public to be the truth, that is,
that seven men, seven commissioners prepared a report, and wrote
the report; and It was an exhaustive investigation, and whet in
fact is reality, that a group or staff, working under severe pr(3s-
slxre and not be able to complete the task with loose end remain*ng.
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GOLDMAN: "Well, isn't that an expanded and more subtle form
of the question, 'was the investigation adequate,' was it fair
enough or good enough?
EPSTEIN: Nell, there's something more to it, was it repre-
sented to the American people as being exhaustive, and was it, in
fact? I think it's a slightly different question."
GOLDMAN: "Mr. Lane, would you give us your comment on the
statement of the issues that are raised in the two books?"
LANE: "Yes, I think you summarized them very well. I think
those are the three basic questions asked by the two books to-
egher."
GOLDMAN: "All rights than let's jump Chen into the first one,
this question -- Was the investigation adequate?' Just to use
that word.
"Would you comment on it, Mr. Griffin, you were involved in
it deeply."
GRIFFIN: "I'd be happy to, Mr. Goldman. I think that the
Warren Commission had, as its primary objective, to establish the
question of who killed President Kennedy? And was there a con-
epiraoy involved?
"And then, three or four further questions dealing with po-
lice protection measures in the activities of Jack Ruby. I am
oonfident from having discussed this Many, many times before this
'prening, that on those issues, the Commission did a thorough job.
"There is a second level of inquiry, Which I think that these
two gentlemen here, Mr. Lane and Mr. Epstein, direct themselves
toward, and that has to do with whether or not various loose ends
en the periphery of the central question were thoroughly tied
Ll_p, and I think that, in that respect, the both of these gentle-
mrn have a done a worthwhile job pointing out a number of loose
ends which I don't think are central or germane to the basic
questl.on, which the Commission has investigated."
GOLDMAN: "Mr. Liebeler would you agree with that? And,
if so, what are these loose ends?"
LIEBELER: "Well, I at) agree with that, I would go on a bit
beyond that, if 1 might, before I get tothis question of the loose
ends, which I think Mr. Lane would be more than happy to enlighten
us about in a moment.
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"I think we have to distinguish between the question of whether
or not the investigation itself was thorough, and the way in which
the report was written, and the way it reflected the evidence that
was the underlying record that resulted from the investigation that
was oonduoted.
"I think that most of the points that Mr. Epstein and Mr.
Lane have made relate to language that was used in the report,
sometimes the report, perhaps, didn't take into oonsideration
all the evidence that was in the record; didn't reflect all of it.
"But that does not affect the thoroughness and the detail
that went on in the underlying investigation. And I do agree
with Mr. Griffin in that regard, that as far as the basic con-
clusions of the report was concerned, that Oswald killed the
President, and that there was not a conspiracy involved, and he
did it alone.
"I'm absolutely convinced of that, after having gone through
both of these gentlemen's work with a good deal of care."
GOLDMAN: "Mr. Lane, you've been designated the authority on
'loose ends.' so..."
LANE: "Well, I'll be happy to talk about 'loose ends,' but
I think the problem is a big more severe than that. I think that
;the ends are so loose that the whole fabric unravels, and that
;there's nothing but a hodge-podge rushed together, which has no
eeality to the evidence.
"I think that the one-volum3 Warren Commission Report beers
no serious relationship to the teentyesix volumes of evidence
howing what it is the investigators for the Commission uncovered
-- I wonder if I might use this photograph for a moment.
"This is a picture of the Dealy Plaza area, and the limousine
came here on Main, up Houston and Dawn Elm, and it was about here
when the first shot was fired and it was about here when the last
was fired.
"The Commission said all the shots were fired from Oswalth
who was here, sad the Commission, on the sixth floor of the Bock
Depository building. And the Commission went further, and said
ithet no credible evidence suggests the shots were fired from any-
here else. What is the other evidence that the Commission holds
not to be credible?
'Almost two-thirds of those in the Dealv Plaza were asked
there the shots came from. They said the shots came from behind
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this wooden wooden fence, high up on this little hill. That includes seven
men who were on the railroad bridge, there, who said they looked over
behind the fence when the shots were fired, because they thought
the shots came from there, who said they saw puff or puffs of white
smoke. It includes Lee Bowers, who was here in the railroad tower
who looked down at the fence when the shots Were fired.
"The question of. the way the Commission handled the investigation
can best be illustrated by -- or can be illustrated by a discussion
of Bowers himself in the tower. Bowers said 'when the shot* were
fired, something attracted my attention to the fence, which I cannot
define specifically something that' I think that's almost an exact
quote, if not a very close paraphrase. After the word 'that', the
Commission put a dash, and then it appeared that the Commission
attorney who was questioning Mr. Bowers broke in to interrupt him
before he finished the sentence, and he never was taken back to the
question of what attracted him to the fence, When the shots were
fired.
"But when I conducted a filmed and tape recorded interview
with Mr. Bowers in 'March of this year, I told him that for a year
or so, I was very interested to know he might have finished this
answer, if permitted. Me said, in essence, the Commission lawyer
did interrupt me, evidently they did not want to hear the facts,
but what I would have told them if they wanted me to finish my
sentence, is that which attracted my attention to the fence when
the shots were fired was a puff of smoke or a flash of light at the
feud?. And this I think is an indication, and just a small one,
there are many others, of the lack of thoroughness. But if a
pattern is portrayed, for the fast is that the majority of the witnesses
who testified before the Commission were confronted with FBI reports
of what they allegedly told agents of the F.B.I., a majority of cases
where they were confronted with those reports, ths witness said,
the report was inaccurate, in at least one respect, and it was
almost always a major respect, and there was a pattern, which emerged
from the F.B.I. 'changing what the witness said he told them, and that
is, that in every case where there was a change, in almost every case,
the F.B.I. report was consistent with Oswald's guilt as the lone
as
"But what the witness said was inconsistent, and if / may just
add one more thing..."
ROVEMg,:: "What do you mean by a pattern? 7busid this twice,
a pattern has emerged that you've..."
LAME: "I'd be happy to discuss that, of bourse. For example,
there is a picture taken by a MAI named Major Philip Willis, of the
Book Depository building, five minutes after the shots were fired,
Re gave this picture, that one and eleven Others to the Commission,
and on one of the photographs, there was the one taken of the
Depository building, there's a man who appears in the picture, at the
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right-hand portion of the picture, you can see his entire face, and
a portion of his body, dawn to about his waist level, and he looks
very much like Zack Ruby. And T was on a Dallas television program."
ROVER' " Excuse me, but is this the pattern that you described?
LANE: nv you would allow me to finish, sir, I would be happy
I.o..."
GOLDMAN: "Let me say..."
LIEBSILER: "Again, before we get to the pattern, this is one
of the-problems, and the kind of thing that happens all the times -
Mr. Lane has started off, and makes the remarks about the testimony
that Mr. Bowers gave to Joseph A. Ball, who is one of the most
outstanding trial lawyers on the west coast of this country. And he
has indicated that Mr. Ball out Mr. Bowers off without Mr. Bowers
--
before Mr. Bowers get a chance to tell him what it was that attracted
his attentions."
LANE: "Mr. Bowers says that himself, it's his own statement."
L/EBELER:"Yes, and that what it says here on page 32 of your book."
LANE: "Yes, that's what he said."
LIEBELER:"Now, what you failed to point out, mr. Lanes whether
Mt. Bowers said that or not, I don't know, I know I wont back and
read Mr. Bowers' testimony yesterday, and the fact of the matter is
that Mr. Ball had asked this same question twice before Mr.Lane picked
up the quote here. And in both oases, Mr. Bowers tried to answer the
question. And he said specifically, as a matter of fact, that he was
unable to tell Mr. Ball exactly what it was, but that it was a sort
of milling around. Now, he didn't say anything about a puff of white
when he testified to Mr. Ball, and Mr. Ball cut 'him off on the third
time around, Mr. Lane, not the first time around..."
LANE: "Well, let's start here, if there's any doubt in your
mind to what Mr. Bowers said, we've just completed a film which will
be released probably next month, we haven't done the opticals on it
yet, and in it, there is Mr. Bowers being interviewed..."
LIEBELER:"That's not going to show what Bowers said to Ball,
is it? It's going to show what Bowers said to you..."
LANE: "What happened.. what he said beeore the Commission..."
EPSTEIN: "... it's very important."
(SEVERAL VOICES OVERLAP HERE)
GOLDMAN: "Excuse me, Mr. Epstein and Mr. Lane. Mr. Revere has
not finished his questioning here. You were bothered by this..."
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Wukt "Well, I'm just.-whenever somebody begins by Saying
a pattern is emerging, I want to know what it means. ? I don't /:.want
to know whatBowers said to-you...."
LANE: "I was off that subject when..."
ROVERE-.1 a pattern suggests something with meaning and
Consistency, and.:."
LAVE: "Predisely, yes. That's exaCtly what I'm saying. I
was giving you an example of..."
.
ROVER.: "But I don't went examples; I want to know what
the pattern is."
LANE: "Perhaps you don't went an example, but I'd like to answer
the'questions you pose the way / think they Should be answered.."
GOLDMAN: "Well he -wants to know What the pattern is."
LAVE: "The pattern is quite simple, but the F.B.I...."
ROVATAll': ?Pattern of what?"
LANE: "That the F.B.I.-- I said that, if you want illustrations,
I'll have to give-..;if you just vent me to say it again, X will. When
the F.B.I 0 questioned the witnesses who then testified before the
Commission and where the witnesses were confronted with the F.B.I.
report, in a majority of cases, the witnesses said that the F.B.I.
report is not accurate, 'that's not what I told the agents of the F.B.I.
and the pattern is..."
GOLDMAN: "The pattern is, the F.B.I. has distorted whet the
witness has said."
LIEBELER: "According to the.., it's distortion, then."
ROVERE: "And the Commission itself set up these reports, because
it was the Commission asked theme."
LANE: "Now, we get to that, In some cases, the witness who was
then able to point out what had taken. place. But, since the F.B.I.
conducted twenty-five thousand interviews and reinterviews which
the Commission said it relied upon, and the COMMISSiOn itself only
questioned ninety-four. witnesses, and counsel for the Commission only
questioned including those hinety-tor, a total of five hundred and
fifty two.." .
'ROVER E' :I "Only?"
LANE: "Only. That's only out of twenty-five thousand; because
you relied upon a lot of those ?even 7-five thousand..."
(VOICES OVERLAT'HRRE)
GOLDMAN: "Excuse me, Mr. Liebeler, and Mr. Lane, may I interrupt
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for a moment? We are trying to establish what the opinions are on
this subject of the adequacy or the inadequacy of the Commission. You're
saying it is inadequate because it distorted F.B.I...."
LABE: "This is one of the things. I might say.."
GOLDMAN: "Do you agree with that, Mr. Epstein?"
EPSTEIN: "Well, I think that in dealing with the question of
whether there was one or more assassins, the basic question is whether
thd shot came from behind the President, because if the shots came from
behind the President, than it's not really relevant where witnesses
thought the shots came from. And the autopsy, and autopsy photographs,
and other evidence, wbuld show exactly where the shots came from. And
then, what bothers me is that the Commission did not look at this
very basic evidence, the place where everything starts from. They
never saw the photographs of the autopsy, and there was a major con-
tradiotion. And this bothers me more than what witnesses said." ?
LANE: "And I would add to that, also, the fact that I would
think that the Commission should not publish pictures of the President's
body, obviously,. I think that the Commission maybe shou/d have looked
at them?;.yes, I agree with you. But I think the Commission should
have published the X-Raya, because there's nothing gory or in bad
taste, obviously, in X-Rays."
EPSTEIN: "I can't understand it why, maybe you could explain
this to me, Nr. Griffin, why didn't the Commission look at this basic
evidence?"
GRIFFIN: "Well, they had before them, Mr. Epstein, the expert
witnesses, the doctors who had examined all of this evidence, and
they all said..."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING)
GOLDMAN: "Mr. Griffin."
GRIMM "In each case, and you know this is true, Mt Lane,
where an expert testified to a particular matter, he had examined
all the matters whioh would have been relevant to his expert testimony..."
EPSTEIN: "But there was a conflict among the witnessess..."
GRIFFIN: "I read your book on that, I don't see the contradiction.."
EPSTEIN: "You don't believe there is a contradiction?"
GRIFFIN: "What contradiction do you see?"
EPSTEIN: "That there are three F.B.I. reports. Each of the
F.B.I. reports state that the bullet entered below the shoulder,
and did not pass through the body entirely."
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GRIFFIN: "Are you talking about the DeeeMbor 9 report?"
EPSTE/N: "The December 9, the Januery 13, and the November
28th. Those three reports.. By contradiction, I mean, if theie F.B.I.
reports are accurate, then the Commission's autopsy reports are not
accurate. And inverlY sense of the word, that is a contradiction."
GRIFFIN: "No, .no.."
EPSTE/N: "I'm sure you'd agree. You don't think there's a
contradiction?
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: "May I add to that?"
GRIFFIN: "rho object of the Commission, as in every investigation,
is to get the best evident... noir let as finish, the best evidence
in this case is the comparison between; what you've suggested we
should have used, the heresay F.B.I, report..."
EPSTE/N: "No, I suggested we use the autopsy photographs."
GRIFFIN: "Well, you were talking about the contradiction."
LANE: nar. Epstein said that the report raises the question of
the contradictions, and there's no question that it does."
GRIFFIN: "It doesn't raise a contradiction, because--let me
finish shoving you... this is a common problem on programs like this."
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: "We all have suffered from that same problem..
GRIFFIN: "The F.B.I. agents who wrote these reports themselves
never saw the X-rays; they never saw the photographs; they only over-
heard some conversations with the doctors...let me finish.. those
F.B.I. reports were used, as Is clearly set forth in their reports,
to provide the Commission with a summary background. We felt that
we could not rely, in any case, upon what the F.B.I. produced, and I
think, Mr. Lane, you'd agree that we should not have done that."
LANE: a question to me, sir?"
GOLDMAN: "... gentlemen, later..."
GRIFFIN: "... so we went to the experts, whom the F.B.I. overheard
and those experts were called to testify, and that's the evidence
we relied on, and these F.B.I. reports, which are summaries of heresay,
written; by people, F.B.I. agents who were not competent even to
evaluate what was said, who didn't hear, who didn't have all the inform-
ation available to them."
EPSTEIN: ".. you don't think they're competent?"
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GRIFFIN: "Certainly not. They're not doctors, in this ease."
LANE: "The F.B.I. reports do paraphrase Dr. Humes (?) who
conducts the autopsy. If I may read from page 285 of the report
of Sebred and O'Neil, two F.B.I. agents. 'Dr. Humes stated that
the pattern was clear that the one bullet had entered the President's
back, and worked its way out of the body during external cardiac
massage,' and the F.B.I. agents went on to state that D. HUmes said
that the bullets had not exited forward, that further probing determine('
that the distance traveled by this missile, the bullet in the back, was
a short distance, inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt
with the finger,"
GRIFFIN: "NOW, you said all of that without having the additional
evidence that should have been available to him of what happened down
in Park Lane hoepital. Isn't that right?"
UNE: "Yee.
GRIFFIN: ".., and the doctors, why we gave the final testimony
after they had all of the evidence before them...what you have done
in your book, the name is Griffin, whet you have done in your book,
and what you have dome in your book, W. Epstein, is to take strictly
secondary evidence, in some oases, tertiery evidence, if we can
dignify with the word evidence..."
EPSTE/N: ff... the F.B.I. report to the President..."
LANE: "And you relied on some twenty-five thousand of them,
but not this one..."
GOLDMAN: "Gentlemen, if I may..."
LANE: "And if / may say what you did do, you say that this
is heresay, and the photographs and the X-rays are not basic because
we have the results of Doctor HUmas, but what you did accept, of
course..."
GRIFFIN: "F.B.I., reports were never relied on, in critical matter
of this sort, and you've read all the testimony and you know that.."
LANE: "Let me say this, what you did accept, though, and
solemnly marked in evidence, instead of the photographs, instead of
the X-rays, are three drawings by an artist, based upon. Dr. Humes'
verbal description of what his notes said, and what he recalled had
happened months before. Is that the best evidenoe?"
GRIFFIN: "Plus the autopsy report itself, plus the testimony
of the autopsy surgeon, who drafted the report at the time, that
was also..."
LANE: "Now, what you also had was...0"
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LIEBELER: 11?411 and there's no question whatsoever, when you
look at the autopsy, and you take the trouble to measure fourteen
centimeters from the right mastoid process down, and / think Mr.
Epstein. and / went through this on. another television program the
other day, It's quite clear that the evidence, the hole in the shirt,
is entirely consistent with what the report finally concludes--Ar.
Lane, if I may--the report finally concluded. And you say, of course,
that the bullet entered in the back at a. point lower than it exited
in tho front. Did you never take the trouble to measure fourteen
centtaeters down from your right mastoid process? Of course not.
And 'you won't answer the question, either."
LANE: "What / have done, Mr. Liebeler--of course-Ihave--but what
I have done. What I have Shown, Mr. Liebeler..."
LIEBELER: "... where does it come to, where does it coma?"
LANE: "It comes insofar as this autopsy..."
LIEBELER: "But, where does it come when you measure the actual
fourteen centimeters?"
(VOICES OVERLAP)
LIEBELER: %then, it's allright..."
LAVE: "No, it's not alright, because you don't like, so it's
an inaccurate diagram..."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING)
LANE: "Please, gentlemen, will you permit me, since the question
was asked, and (Inaudible).* you have the answer.. Now, here's what
Dr. Humes himself drew, it's called the Autopsy Descriptive Sheet,
prepared by Commander 3.3. Humes, it's Commission Exhibit 397, and here
is the dot. It's not on the neck at all; it's on the back, just whore"
the F.B.I. says Dr. Humes said It was."
LIEBELER: "Now what does that mean?"
LAVE: "You said fourteen centimeters..."
GOLDMAN: Ne are getting into a very detailed examination about
the subject which I think is going to be beyond the comprehension of
the audience, because they don't know the subject as well as we do.
Could I get a more general commentary on this first question? It
has been said that this investigation of the Commission was not
adequate; it was not good enough, it wasn't exhaustive enough; it
was not satisfactory in some sense or another. Now, Mr. Revere'
you wrote an introduction to Mr. Epsteidt book, in which you said
you started reading this manuscript, like most of the rest of us,
feeling that the Warren Commission had settled the matter, and you
ended up unsettled in your mind to some extent. Is your own unsettle-
ment on this issue of was the investigation good enough?"
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ROVERS: "Yes, absolutely, and it grows all the time, I think,
and I'm intrigued when VW.. Griffin, who,, for all I know, may be very....
haveall the facts on his side, in this argument, I'm no authority
on them, but, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is, after all, the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, and if it's incompetent in medical
matters, why is it paid to draw up a report..."
GRIFFIN: "Well, they're not trained in that area."
ROVERE: "No, but men are working on it, and somebody's asked
for a report--I don't want to get into the fact of evidence here,
because I'm not competent to, except as regards the workings of the
Commission; and I?what this, basically *hat seems to me is at issue
here, to me, at least, I want, as an knerioam citizen, to be able to
put some confidence in what my governtent says. And the usefulness
to me, of the kind of inquiry that mr. Epstein and a nueber of other
people have conducted, is in that field, and it seems to me we caret
settle on a few minutes with Mi'. Lane holding up some pictures, and
pointing to them. These seem to ma to be the fundamental questions
in a discussion of this kind."
GR/FPIN: "I think that's right, and what I think is fundamental
here, Mk.. Goldman, is the process; and if the readers understand--
or listeners, viewers, understand the process, / think they'll under-
stand a bit more what our argument has been ebout. Our process was to
take volumes of F.B.I. reports, to reed them, to digest them, to try
to understand what the F.B.I. seemed to think, and the other agencies
seemed to think, was found; and then, not to rely on those F.B.I.
agents not to rely on those heresay reports, but to get the actual
witnesses that the F.B.I. talked to, and to take 'bin testimony. And
those five hundred and fifty two Witnesses, whose testimonies were
taken, represented the witnesses whose testimony was central to the
issues which we..."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING)
GOLDMAN: "mr, Epstein, please."
EPSTEIN: "W. Griffin, what happens when you found that a witness
was saying something contrary to his F.B.I. report? Now, it seemed
to me that a lawyer should be able to then tell the witness that his
statement is inconsistent with the F.B.I. report; but I believe when
you did this, you were--I don't think reprimanded so strong--but
you were told that the lawyers an the Warren Commission should not--
you were told this by the Chief Justice?that the lawyers on the
Warren Commission should not do this, and in fact, as I understand it,
you were asked not to question the witnesses too hard, and asked
not to go to Dallas.."
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GRIFFIN: "No, no, I WAS never told that by the Chief Justice.
The Chief Justice told..."
(maw OVERLAPPIN))
EPSTEIN: "qv.. you mean the counseling general-1 was inthe
auditoemm at the time..."
GMFFIN: "I was never told that by the Chief Justice. What
the Chief Justice said to Sergeant Dean, who made the allegation
that T called him a liar, which?and he made that to the press--but
befor3 the Commission if you remember, in his testimony, said I did
not tell him that, Was that no commisaian counsel had the right to make
thosu kind.of allegations..."
EPSTEIN: "No one said..he Very ;pacifically said noComnission
counsel has the right to judge a witness's testimony..."
GRIFFIN: "... that's right.."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING)
GRIFFIN: ".. that was the function of the Commission..."
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: "I think that's right..."
EPSTEIN: %%in, haw did you evaluate the Fa /. reports?"
GRIFFIN: "I evaluated the F.B.I. reports..."
EPSTEIN: "You said that you sat dOwn and you evaluated the
F.B.I. reports..."
GOLDMAN: nmri Lane?"
LANE: "I would like to raise, if we might, s somewhat different
on the question of fairness, and whether we can have faith in the
investigation. This is Commission Exhibit 917, it's a Cable from
the American Embassey in Moscow, which was sent to the F.B.I., the
State Department, the C.I.A., and the Commander of the Marine corps,
on the third of November, 159, relative to Oswald. And it makes ref-
erence to a request for citizenship by Lee Harvey Oswald, former
marine, and, and then forty one letters are deleted. Oswald stated
he was a radio operator in the Marine Corps, and has offered to
furnish the Soviets with info he possesses on U.S. radio. What he
really did, perhaps he should have been arrested when he came back,
but instead he got his passport in twenty-four hours. It took me
about eight days, which is the normal period.
"But I am intrigued by this description of Oswald. 'Lee Harvey
Oswald, former Marine and forty one letters deleted.' I wonder if
that was star of stage, screen and radio, or what else was in here.
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Ka Mr. jenner, of course, is the attorney for the Commission, the
senior counsel, given the responsibility of investigating the area
of Oswald's background, the question of conspiracy, Oswald's motive,
etc.
"I was on a radio program with him quite recently, and I asked
him what those forty-one letters were, because this is right in his
field. He said, 'I don't know. The cable was deleted before I saw
it.' I said, 'well, don't you here an abiding curiosity to know
how Oswald was described? Did it say government agent, or good--
what was their description? Have you any idea?' And he said, II
have faith in whoever deleted it, he must know what he's doing.'
And I said, 'who deleted it?' Andhe said, 'I don't know.'
"Now, I think if we are asked to vest our faith in the Commission,
: think the Conniaaion is asking us to do too much when we find that
men like Mr. Zenner, and I think this is a very important point, and
there are many other instances, of course; but men like Mr. Jenner
sald perhaps others, investing their faith, in others, and we don't
even know who they are."
GOLDMAN: Liebeler?"
LIEBELER: "That's an inacourate description of Mr. Jenner's
position with the Commission, that's point one, because this area
obviously falls into the question of Oswald's contacts outside the
country, and that was not Mr. Jenneria responsibility, it
LANE: "Re said it was, on this radio program."
LIEBELER: "I don't know what he said on the radio program, but
I'm telling you it wasn't, and I'll tell you whose responsibility it
was, it was the responsibility of William Coleman, a lawyer from
Philadelphia, and W. David Sohlossen, formerly a member of a law
firm in Denver.'"
"Now, on the question of whether or not there was any invest-
igation made as to what letters were deleted there, I don't know
the answer to that question off hand, and I don't know whether there
is any response in the twenty-six volumes to this question."
LANE: "Are you curious, though?"
LIEBELER: "Yes, I'm curious about it, and there very well may be
an answer to it somewhere. I'm not prepared to say that the question
wasn't investigated at the time, I don't know about it, I'm quite sure
that Jenner doesn't know about it, and there's no reason to expect
Jenner to know anything about it, because in fact, this was not in
his area."
LANE: "I assumed it was."
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LISBELER: Nell, I'm telling you it wasn't, and it wasn't..."
LAN "Well, he was wrong about that."
LIBELER: "That's right, he Was."
GOLDMAN: "Mr. Rovere, you wanted to comment before."
ROVERE: "I just wanted to get back to this question of the F.B.I
that we're a long way from it. The Commission early on, as I under-
stand, made the decision not to employ independents, its own investig-
ators, because it had this marvelous F.B.I...."
GRIFFIN: "Although it did do that in some instances."
ROVERE: maybe so, but this seems to um the kind of
thing that's Central to this kind of inquiry now, we may be forever
beyond the truth in this matter, but something similar may happen
agafn, and it seems to me that there are lessons to be learned in this
and I, to, for somebody's who's here to represent the Commission, or
is defending its, point of view, to make this cavalier dismissal of the
/ think it's probably right, but it does raise fundamental
questions about the F.B.I., and about the processes that Mr. Epstein
investigated."
GRIFFIN: "You see* the issue here is what the Commission did,
and what it relied upon. Personally* / don't know how you would have
gone about investigating this, how you would have investigated twenty-
five thousand witnesses by hiring private epos..."
ROVERE: "Well, / don't think..."
(OVERLAPPING OP voIcss)
EPSTS/N: it... other governmant investigating. Mr. Rovere has
suggested that they pay investigators...,"
GRIFFIN:
ROVERS:
GRIFFIN:
ROVERE:
"Which ones?"
...tell, you've made (?) a pattern here..."
"To investigate a crime?"
"No* no."
GRIFFIN: "To investigate a homocide?"
ROVERE: "Excuse me, this is not quite what I suggested. I
said that techniques might have been borrowed from other government
agencies..."
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GRIFFIN: "Let me tell you what we did do. You should know
that we did use the Secret Service extensively; we did use the Post
Office Department; we did use State Department investigators; we did
use C.I.A. investigators..."
EPSTEIN: "Did they work directly for you? Or did you have to write
a letter to the Department requesting them to investigate a certain
matter?"
GRIFFIN: "In some cases, they worked directly for us. in the
case of the Internal Revenue Service, they were on our staff."
EPSTEIN: "But those were accountants, weren't they?"
GRIFFIN: "in the case of the Secret Service Agents, I would
say they worked directly for us, in the sense--they were not on our
payroll?but in the sense that I could go to Dallas--I did this .on
a number of occasions, I was there three times."
EPSTEIN: *Did you do this, with the F.B.I.?"
GRIFFIN: *We did hot do this with the F.B.I. We did this with
the Secret Ser*ice, let me say, with the Secret Service, we worked
directly with them, they took instructions from us, and went out and
investigated at our request. And in some oases."
EPSTEIN: .70nly.a minority of reports are Secret Service."
ROVERE: "Nr. Gtiffin, a distinguished member of the government,
a few days after the assassination, and when the Warren Commission
was in the process of formation, wrote a memorandum predicting sessions
like the one we're at now two or three from now, and books like Mr.
Epstein's and said, take it easy, take a long time at this, nail it
down, or you'll be in just the kind of situation We're in now. This
is what concerns me, and this seems to me to be the general concern
of the American public."
GOLDMAN: "Gentlemen, we have obviously not said enough about
the question of -the general quality of the Warren Commission's work;
but the time is racing, weld,be remiss in our duty if we didn't
get to some of these other questions. Another one here is, did the
Warren Commission adequately establish that if Oswald did do this,
he did it alone? Now, your book concerns this to 'a great extent,
although yours has a different emphasis. So, what, to your mind,
is the most damaging point about the lack of qualities to follow
the Commission's establishment of that point?"
EPSTEIN: *Well, I think it's exactly what you said. I'm more
concerned about haw the Commission went about establishing that point,
then trying to determine that point. I don't know whether Oswald
acted alone or not, I think there are improbabilities on both sides.
I think it's very improbable that Oswald was able to fire the shots
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in the amount of time that the Commission determined was--took place.
But I also think it's very improbable that if there had been a con-
spiracy that no trace of it would haus emerged."
GOLDMXN: "Mr. Liebeler, would you comment on this point?"
LIEBELER: "What he's essentially saying, as / understand, is
that he..."
EPSTE/N: "I'm Just weighing the improbabilities..."
=BELEM "...you're just unsatisfied?"
EPSTEIN: "Well, I didn't try to get into weighing these
improbabilities; I'm just trying to point out that the Commission
didn't?reading the report itself, and I think & Mr. Liebeler, at times
when we've discussed* has gone further than the report in trying to,
as he says, refine the report, and add new evidence; but on the evidence
in the report, I don't think you can come to the conclusion that Oswald
acted alone."
L/EBELER: "well, I think that perhaps the strongest evidence on
that, once again* we keep coming bask to the problems of, or the
alleged problems in the medical testimony and the medical evidence,
prior to the autopsy; I think if the autopsy report is correct, and
I have no doubt that it is, it indiaates that all of the shots that
struck into the occupants of the automobile came from above and behind
the President. And this is obviously important, because if there were
evidence, if there were any evidence for example, that a shot had been
fired from anyplace else, obviously the question would have been raised
as to whether or not anyone else was involved, and this would raise
a strong inference that there might have been a conspiracy involved.
"So, that becomes crucial in terms of the discussion that was
going on a minute ago, and you suggested we expand it a little so we
can really understand what we're talking about.
"Mr. Epstein has basically raised the point in his book that
it's possible that the bullet that first struck the President struck
too low in his back so that it couldn't have come out his throat, as
the Commission concluded it did, and gone on to strike Governor
Connelly. Now, if this is so, then it is clear that Oswald could not
have fired a shot as rapidly as required by the evidenze of the motion
picture camera that took pictures of the motorcade as it went .down,
because Governor Connally was hit so soon after the President was
hit that Oswald couldn't have fired the rifle twice in that time space.
So, once again, you get back to this problem of the medical testimony.
Mr. Epstein and I have discussed this, and there's no question in my
mind at this point that the medical evidence does establish that all
the shots came from above and behind.,
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"Now, as far as the evidence of a conspiracy on any other level.
A lot of time, a lot of effort, and a lot of investigation was put
into this question; and I think the only thing that was concluded
was that if there was any substantial kind of conspiracy involved,
some kind of indication would haffe come out at some place along
the line. It's beyond the power of man to know the answer to every
question, Mr. Rovere, as I'm sure you well know."
ROVER!: "Oh, absolutely; but..."
GOLDMAN: "Excuse me, but Mr. Lane has been waiting over here."
LANE: "I think that there is some other basics evidence which
the Commission did not handle properly* on this question' and perhaps
did not even see. The Zapruda film was essential, I think WO all
agree, to the Commission's findings, it's called the Zapruda film,
there's a motion picture eight millimeter film taken by an amateur
photographer, who was to the front and to the right of the limosine,
as he took the pictures, and it is relied on to a large extent by
the CommisSions with other documents and other photographs, primarily
that one, to establish where the limosina was when the shots were
fired, etc. I believe, and correct ma if I'm wrong on this, Mr.
Liebeler, that you agree that the Commission evidently never saw the
whole Zapruda film."
LIEBELER: "No, I don't agree with that."' '
LAVE: "You do not agree?" .
LIEBELER: "Of course not. Because we did see the whole film,
saw it myself."
LANE: "No, no, no. One second, Published frames, that you did
not publish frames of the whole film, is that correct?"
LIEBELER: "Yes, that's correct, but..."
LANE: "That you omitted, not you, but whoever made this
determination, omitted for the Commission those frames between 207
and 212..."
LIEBELER: "Now, Mr. Lane, *mit."
LANE: "I haven't finished, sir..."
LIEBELER: "They didn't put them in the volumes of evidence,
now that doesn't say that they omitted it for the Commiseion, you
made it on behalf of the Commission, I misunderstand you."
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(VOICES OVERLAPPING)
GOLDMAN: "You are stating that these were not published for
the public? Do you agree with that?"
LANE: ft.. 208, 209, and 211 are not pUblished; and 212, which
is published, which is the out published one after 207 in this
sequence, although 210 is elsewhere, from 212 is a spliced picture.
Would you admit that's so?"
LIEBEVER
GOLDMAN:
publication?"
LIEBELER: "Yes, I think there were three, or five left out,
altogether, and three were put somewhere else?"
LAVE: "Well, 8, 9, ten, eleven, and then -- Now / think this
raises, as you know, because you talked with one of our investigators
an the west coast, Mr. Liebeler, some questions, because it does seem
that when you see from 212, that it is possible that a sign which
blocks a portion of that picture has been struck by a bullet, and if
so, of course, we have too many bullets and the case against Oswald..'
EPSTEIN: "Row is it possible to see..(Inaudible)"
LAVE: "Because you cannot see where the hole might be, because
the very frames which have not been published by the..."
EPSTEIN: "You can see the sign..."
LAVE: "No, Mr. Epstein, if you will allow me to finish my
sentence, perhaps you'll get my meaning. You can see the succeeding
frames. and you can see what physicist at universities on the west
coast said are lines of strain in the sign which may be the result
of a bullet hitting the sign.. In Frames from 12 to..."
"That appears to be so, yes."
"Do you agree that there were several not published for
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE:
Nr. Lane?"
LANE: "Yes, someone
were being fired."
?LIEBELER: "And anyway, it's not a fair statement that physicists
have said this, because your investigators, as a matter of fact, never
made that claim to me, I raise this.."
LAVE: "Well, that was after he spoke with you. But you did,
did you not write a letter, Ni'. Liebeler, to Mr. Rankin, and yuu said
this is a plausible theory."
"It could be a rook, too, couldn't it,
might have thrown a rook when the shots
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LIEBELER: ?/ said it adorned plausible to me.
LANE: "It seemed plausible. And you asked, in fact, that Mr.
Rankin look into this matter formally with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation to find out why the ;plies and the frames was left out,
is that not true?"
LIEBELER: My more specific request was that the frames should
be obtained in public..."
LAVE: "And didn't you ask that there be some formal inquiry
made to the F.B.I.?"
LIEBELER: "I may have,"
LANE: "Yes. Now, in addition to that."
GRIFFIN: "Let ma comment an this a second, because you see, the
underlying premise that I think Mr. Lane in putting forth here is that
somebody has deliberately deleted something, knowing that it would
show, point to a conclusion contrary to the one that the Commission
developed, And this, I don't understand this at all. And / think that
Mr. Lane knows, and Me. Epstein knows, that Hr. Liebeler and I
provided a very sUbstantial adversary system within the framework of
the Commission, that, gentlemen, if I had any inkling that anything
like that happened, / would have resigned, I wouldn't be here today.
I certainly concur with Mr. Liebeler, that people--if Nr. Lane raises
a doubt like this, that he challenges my integrity IX(' be more than
happy to have those filmstrips shown; but what is the basis for this
attack on our integrity? There's all sorts of reasons. Now, the most
reasonable explanation that I can think of for omitting those is that
they were simply oumulative, and we had space limitations. I think
you gentlemen* all know..."
LIEBELER: "I think perhaps a more plausible explanation, if I
may, is that for some reasons or another, this, probably when the
individual slides were being made up, because this film WWI broken
dawn to individual slides, and blown up, that the film was cut, and
these frames were, for some reason or another, were inadvertently
left out. Now, as Mr. Lane has already pointed out, there's no--
there's very little conspiratbrial inference to be drawn from this
because one of frames was in fact published somewhere else. So
there's no reason for leaving 210 out.
"As a matter of fact, let me say something else, Mr. Lane*
some other of your investigators are here on the east coast, one Jones
Harris by name..."
LAVE: "He has no relationship with me whatsoever..."
LIEBELER: "Has gone to--but anyway* whether he's a friend of
yours or not, that doesn't affect his veracity one way or the other,
has gone to Life Magazine, and has observed this film in its entirety,
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as we all did at the time, and Mr. Harris recalled to me and Mr.
Epstein in conversation that there's no such thing as a bullet hole
or anything in that sign."
LANE: "Why would you rather have.
EPSTEIN: "Doesn't this really bring us to?excuse me..."
ROVERE: "I just wanted to say that there seems to be a leak
between the Warren Report and if there's anything to this two-assassins
theory is possible, then we being talking about conspiracy. These
don't seem to be--to me to be the possible explanations of this at
all. I can conceive of a second assassin, no more involved in
aonspiraoy than a couple of hold-up men..."
LANE: 'Well, that is a conspiracy, it's acting in concert."
ROVERE: "Yes, but it's not what comes to mind when people talk
of conspiracy, and you know perfectly well that is's not the kind
of conspiracy that we've beim talking about. I'm not?my own feeling
happens to be that in all probability, the improbable happened, and
Oswald did it alone; however, if this should turn out not to be the
case, it wouldn't necessarily alter the case fundamentally. If I can
find one nut, I can find two; and nuts often get together."
GOLDMAN: "Gentlemen, I wonder if
that third question, did Oswald do it,
one or two assassins? We ought to say
that's particularly your territory."
we could move quickly overinto
apart from whether there was
something about that. Mr. Lane,
LANE: "Really no more than the other, because I have never said
that I believe that Oswald did it, or did not do it. Yes, I have
doubts about that. I say had Oswald had his trial, he would not have
been convicted, and I think one of the commissions lawyers, Alfreda
Scobio had said that in a Law Review article as well. So I don't
really go beyond her, but she did indicate, I think in fairness to
her position, that she raised tha possibility, that for example Marina
Oswald, who did testify before the commission and quite properly so,
would not have been able to testify."
GOLDMAN: "Mt,. Epstein, I gather that you do not agree with this."
EPSTEIN: "Well, I do think that in the Commission Report, there
is enough evidence to show that Oswald did it. I'm not talking..
(Voices Overlap Here)... or whether this evidence would be admitted
in the trial. but I think that someone has to be satisfied, on the basis
of this evidence, and there's a chain of evidence from Oswald's rifle
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to the the time that Oswald killed Tippet, it seems that the case as they
present it is reasonable and plausible* I mean as far as, but I didn't
investigate whether the evidence was valid, I stmply on the basis--what
I was investigating was the process of the Commission, and I really
assume that the Commission did present enough evidence on this point.
It's not Mr. Lane I disagree with, it's the Commission."
LANE: "I'd like to comment-- on frame 313 of the Zapruda film,
of course, is the frame which the Commission states and I think quite
accurately, is the frame which shows the time that the bullet struck
the President's head. And I think the next two frames, 314 and 3159
in which the President's movement can be observed, is most important,
Is that he was driven forward or backward. I think it is most
unfortunate that when the Commission published the frames, they
incorrectly labeled 314 and 315, and published them backwards, and this
of course did give an impression that the President was driven forward*
when he was, in fact* driven backward. I think it's unfortunate that
the Commission mislabeled these documents and published them out of
context. If there's any question about that, 'here's a letter from.."
LIEBELER: "I don't know whether that happened or not
LANE % "Well, here's a letter from J. Edgar Hoover, dated December
14, /965* ,You are correct in the observation that frames labeled
314 and 315 ofeommission Exhibit 885 are transposed in Volume 18, as
noted in your letter., And Mr. Hoover goes on to say..."
GRIFFIN: "You wouldn't rely on the F.B.I.?"
LANE: "Nos I'm not, but I do think that when we can prove it,
even to the satisfaction of Mr. Hoover, which is going very far, I
think, when one is dealing with facts, that even Mr. Hoover's con-
cession that he made an error I is an admission against interest,
a concept with which we're all familiar, would indicate that Mr. Hoover
may be accurate in this one particular respect."
GRIFFIN: "Well supposing ho is?"
LANE: Nell, then, the Commission published the two frames lust
after the bullet hit the President's head, out of sequence, and
mislabeled, thereby giving the impression that the President was
driven forward..."
ROVERE: "Is this germane to the question that Mr. Goldman asked
at the moment..."
LANE: "Of course, it is. If the bullet was fired from the right
front, and since the Commission said Oswald was in the rear, obviously
Oswald could not have fired that, you see. And that's the bullet
which killed the President."
(VOICES OVERLAP)
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GRIFFIN: "The evidence is that he was hit in the back of the
head, not the front of the head."
LANE: Nell, that's what you say, but there is some question
about that, because the closest..."
GRIFFIN: "/ don't say that, all the doctors said that."
LANE: "No, not all the doctors, because eight of the doctors
could net find that little hole to which the Commission refers."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING) ". is eight.. that they didn't look, Mkt.
Lane?"
LANE: "Well, I don;t know, if the doctors were not examining
the ?resident..."
VOICES OVERLAPPING: "I'd like to make..."
GRIFFIN: "The doctors at Park lane Hospital had no question that
th3 back of his head was blown out. /bu're talking about a hole.."
LANE: "Well, we know that the back of his head was blown out.
let the question is, where did the bullet come? Did it come from
'he front.."
GRIFFIN: "These photographs you're talking about had to do with
blowing off the back of his head. Now are you suggesting that the
bullet that blew off the back of his head came from the front?"
-LANE: "Of course. That'show the: back of the head was blown off,
because an exit wound is R large one, it takes bone material with it,
and in fact, as you know, one of the witnesses, the closest, spectator,
perhaps to the limosinel Charles Brin, said that he was fifteen feet,
twenty feet, from the limosino, and he saw a portion of the President's
head, the skull portlan? fly backward and over the rear of the car
and he said that on television, November 22, yet for some reason, the
Commission never called this man, the 'closest spectator, as a witness,
and none of your attorneys for the Commission questioned him, but you
did of course Question Professor Revolt) Oliver, not you, but the
Commission, .Rovelo Oliver, who said he: had no facts whatsoever, he
entertained the possibility that the President was killed because he
was deciding to leave the communist conspiracy and turn:America..."
(VOICES OVERLAPPING) "Forget about the Communist conspiracy"..
"We're talking about." "I'd like to..." "We've been through it..."
LIEBELER: "Well, I'm glad you raised that question, because you,
on page 58 of your book, go through the testimony of the surgeons,
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CPYRGHT
the doctors in Dallas, whose primary responsibility at that time was
to save the President's life, not to determine whether these were exit
wounds or entrance wounds, or to perform an autopsy. And they specif-
ically stated themselves that they regarded it as far beyond their
perogative to make any such examination of the President.
"Now, you quote Dr. Clark, and the question you ask is, 'did you
observe any hole or wound in the President's head?' Now, the problem
here is that there was a large exit wound on the right hand rear of the
head, and a small entrance wound right below it. And you quote Dr.
Clark as saying, 'No sir, I did not.' Now, I'd like to know why
they didn't go on and quote the sentence that followed that, and say,
that Dr. Clark said, 'that could easily have been hidden in the blood
and hair,' And this is just one example of the way you handled your
whole book, Mr.Lane, and if you want me to tick off fifteen more,
I'll be happy to..."
LANE: "I'll tell you what, let me tick off fifty regarding the
Commission, starting from the very beginning.."
LIEBELER: .."You're criticising the Commission for being selective,
now, how do you respond..."
LANE: "I think T am entitled to respond to that, and I would
like to.."
LIEBELER: "You tell me why you left that out
LANE: "Mr. Liebeler, be patient, and I'm going to tell you,
if you'll just listen."
LIEBELER: "After the program, I presume."
LANE: "If you're patient, and you will stop talking, I am going
to tell you right now while we're still on to that. The Commission
report was reportedly a fair, impartial document. My book is not an
objective analysis, and I have never said it is. / have a position,
and my position is that the Commission selected evidence out of context,
the Commission distorted evidence, etc. And I say, also, that the
Commission was not adequate in stating that the eight doctors at Park
Lane who examined the President's head said that they could not find
a hole in the back of the head. They did not see a hole, on the back
of the head. And I made that point, and I listed it. And this is in
answer to a prosecution document, in a sense, you might say, that the
book is a brief for the other side."
GOLDMAN: "I think you have both stated your positions on that
very technical point, We have only got five minutes to go, will you
stick to the area of the whole three problems that we're discussing
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Mt. Griffin got us into something, I think we should Way a word about.
You raised the question, why this questioning, why should people assume
that perhaps the Warren Commission was hasty, superficial, and so
forth. Now, I take it, Mr. Epstein, your point of view is they were
trying to satisfy a great public need at that time, which was to
bring solidity to the situation, and a sense of knowing this thing.."
OPSTEIN: "Well, I think the very specific need was to get the
report out at a certain date, and I think that that dominated the entire
investigation, and that the lawyers were told time and time to finish
their reports on time, and I think that, I can't say why they needed
to get this report out, I could speculate on the reasons, and I agree
with the reasons you gave.."
GOLDMAN: "I didn't give them, I was raising a question."
GRIFFIN: "I think I. Epstein, in raising this in his book,
ignores the timing--there was no doubt :a good bit of pressure, but
he ignores the timing of this pressure,. This pressure came on after
all got a handful of witnessesso.were questioned and at a point when
we began, we were taking the evidence, we had investigated for three
and one half months, and let me say that we had, as you know, twenty-
six people working on the staff, not to mention the F.B.I. Let me
finish, I'm trying to explain why I think this pressure developed. By
this time, we had a tremendous amount of evidence, and the Chief
Justice of the United States, who had been a prosecutor of Alameda
County for twenty years, I think, began to wonder when he asked us,
have you found anything, have you found anything that shows a con-
spiracy, and he had these twenty-six people who were investigating,
and couldn't say we had found anything-at this point.
"I think what happened--this is my own appraisal from having
worked with it--I think this man vith his experience looked back and
saidr I've never had this many insestigators work on a case for so
long and come up with nothing more, and he began to say, 'let's
get this thing out.' And so I think..."
EPSTEIN: "... your experiense, because in July, you were ?
still trying to determine how Jack Ruby got into the basement, which
was crucial to your issue..."
GRIFFIN:
admitting the
GRIFFIN:
"That s right..."
... and that was one month past the deadline for
reports.."
"That's right, that,s right.., no, it is, because I
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CPYRGHT
was trying to close a whole series of loopholes. Let me say that it
was the Commission's view that we had sufficiently covered the question
of how Jack Ruby got into the basement..."
EPSTEIN: "They never had said so before.."
GRIFFIN: "They told us at that time, but I didn't feel that.."
GOLDMAN: "Mt. Rovere, do you want to comment on the general
atmosphere of the Commission, so to speak?"
ROVERE: Nell, Nr. Griffin and Mt. Liebeler? know far more about
that than I do' I think, as far as the sources of the pressure, it's
quite evident--I don't see how anybody could not have wanted 'to, I'd
have felt there was a need to dispel rumors, particularly if they
were false, and they could be dispelled. It was very much in the
country's interest, in terms of foreign policy, of terms of domestic
politics. I don't know that these pressures came out directly in this
form, I think they were there, and I don't think?know what traffic
the White House had with the Commission, but, one can think of a
hundred reasons, and all of them valid in one way or another, for
wanting to close this thing up in a hurry. People wanted to know,
it would be reassuring."
LANE; "I think it is almost too easy on the Commission to say
that time was a problem, Had Oswald lived to face trial.."
ROVERE; "Time is always a problem, se., Lane."
LANE; "Excuse me, Mr. Rovere..."
(VOICES OVERLAP HERE)
"..time is not always a problem, because in criminal cases, a
man can be tried for a crime of murder, and it can be much more complicat
a case, in this one involving a eonapiraoy with a number of people,
and rarely does the government, on a local or federal level, take ten
months to conduct an investigation; never does it spend a million dollars
and never does it have the F.B.I. and the Secret Service, and the Local
Police, this is a very unique situation. But if the Commission, as I
said, earlier, is going to call people like Professor Oliver, to hear
him speak on for hours about his theories--he was in Illinois when
the shots were fired?and had no evidence to offer, but if the Commission
is going to spend a lot of time.."
GOLDMAN: "I'm very sorry, gentlemen, but unfortunately, I've got
to take this off the air. Thank you very much, mr. Mark Lane, the
author of 'Rush to Judgement'; mr, Wesley J. Liebeler, of the Warren
Commission; Nr. Edgar J. Epstein, author of 'Inquest'; Mr. Richard
Revere, of the New Yorker; and Mt, Bert W. Griffin, also an assistant
counsel to the Warren Commission. Thank you for being with us, ladies
and gentlemen, and goodbye for this week."
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