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• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP75-00149R000200940041-5
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 4
• Document Creation Date: November 11, 2016
• Document Release Date: May 21, 1999
• Sequence Number: 41
• Publication Date: August 1, 1961
• Content Type: OPEN

~Ut; ~ t~S~ STATINT
Approved For Rel
I~G1 CO
lieve this is what the Senator from Ar
Speaking for myself, I support w t
the administration has done. I ha e
also said, and repeat this afternoon on
the floor of the tienate, the administra-
tion must go much further in the diplo-
matic field, in the negotiation field. It is
very fortunate that, in his speech of last
week, the President made perfectly clear
his willingness to negotiate and adjudi-
cate with regard to any treaty contro-
versy which may be involved over Ber-
lin, anal he used the term "adjudicate."
The senior Senator from Oregon for
some years has been pleading fo the
se 1999/09/17 :CIA-RDP75
RESSIONAL RECORD -SENATE
touattack ewithdnuclearKweaponseinnthat waylacross the Atiantpic.wWellrI don't know
sense. perhaps you could say he is blufRng, that that necessarily follows. At the mo-
I Mr.rCLAPPi;BhIsihe decoying forhsome other These are mattersewhich I think should be
operation somewhere else in the world, whensGeorge Kenno proposed it, and I don't
possibly?
Senator FULBRIGHT. In a sense that is in- wish to stir up controversy or differences
volved. I see no signs of his relenting. in his either between me and the administration or
activities in other parts of the world. That within this country. There are already too
is Latin America, or the Far East or Middle sa~lyadiffethink we shouldadiscuss matters
East; they are all connected.
Mr. SCALI. Senator, the President has related to the German question and have
called for three and a half billion dollars conferences about them especially at the
more in military spending. At t~ ne o larte. a showdowneleading to a Hue ear war That
he has also said we are ready g
Are you satisfied with the military prepared- is what I am trying to say and I think any of
Hess and do you think it strikes the right these issues have possibilities of discussion.
balance between negotiation and firmness? Now I know some of our very important peo-
Senator FULBRIGHT. I think so. I thought pie think that this is a futile and fruitless
his speech the other day was very well thing, that we should not--they interpret it
balanced and his request for military as- as weakness. I do not so interpret it. ,
v it isy w 11 Lori MANSF ELD's idea ywas long the right
p
ee
e
~s
nk
I th
knoW.
you
Senatee as
balanced. line. This idea of a free city, which' would
Mr. CLAPPER. Senator, do you think the include all of Berlin.
West should take the initiative in negotia- least axid to seeRwhat ki di oP accessof it at
Lions over Berlin?
Senator FULHBIGHT. I do. I think we have I would not accept the idea that access
been remiss in not making proposals that to Berlin should be under the power and
would give some opportunity for negotia- control of the East Germans. Now every-
tion. I think there are alternatiressivedin dicatethetthinkssthat is partiof itul Well
don't think we have been as egg I would not accept that. But we are not
suggesting them as we should be. sure that this is the only thing he would
Mr. CLAPPEa. What are they.
Senator FULBRIGHT. Well several have been entertain. If it was a genuine free city with
explored and suggested in the past. One is completely free access, in which there was
for a different status with regard to the so- no doubt about it-guaranteed by everyone,
called middle Europe. The disengagement I think there are possibilities in this direc-
ts one idea that could be discussed. The tion and it ought to be discussed. I do not:
question of giving to West Germany any nu- saoseshatThere uish a tbig difference ine this..
clear arras has been discussed. In the Potts- p
dam Agreement, of course, we agreed, as I But I believe in negotiation and discussion
recall, not- to rearm the West Germans. as a general approachatums and showdowns
These are matters that could be brought up Mr. SCALI. Do you think we should take
again. They have been discussed in the past the initiative in proposing negotiations
and then dropped. rather than wait for Khrushchev to sign
The question of a free city is a very diffl- his eace treaty?
cult concept. I have read everything Khru- Senator FULBRIGHT. Generally speaking for
shchev has said about it and I must say he several ears Khrushchev has made proposals,
doesn't go far enough in satisfying me that y
his idea of a free city is what I would think and we have said "No, we can't accept that,
period." There are very few cases in which
was a reasonable one, we have said, "Well, that might be interest-
Mr. CLAPPER. What about the Mansfield ing, but we believe this should be considered,
idea of a #'ree city? and perhaps this should be considered, and
Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, the great prob- we believe this could be reasonable." And
lem here is whether or not you can make it there are other things that we could do, too,
satisfactory to us. I think MANSFIELD'S sug- at the same time that are not related to a
gestion was along the right line. I think we eace conference. If we are serious about
ought to discuss these alternatives. I am phis business, there are all kinds of trading
not saying that I think Khrushchev would activities going on between the East and the
agree to them. But I don't see any great West that could be regulated. I have refer-
advantage in just taking the view that we ence for example to a recent story in one
will entertain no negotiations, we won't of the newspapers about a new arrangement
enter into any negotiations for any kind of for the supplying of oil to India to supplant
a change, or to prevent and supplant the supply of oil
I think we ought to talk about it. I am b Russia. This is a very intelligent ap-
not prepared to say just what kind of a y
_. ,.,,,,~,,,? ~ proach. This is the type of thing that should
an adjudica un t a-
tions Ch , of issue en the
peace _ e woes a It of contro~
arties. That includes,
p made by the distinguished Senator from
Arkansas [Mr. FULSarcHT] may be clari-
fied completely, I ask unanimous consent
to have the text of the "Issues and
Answers" program of July 30 printed in
the body of the RECORD at this point.
There being no objection, the text was
ordered to be printed in the RECORD, as
follows:
ISSUES AND ANSWERS
(Sunday, July 30, 1981).
Guest: Senator JAIvIES W. FULBRIGHT, Demo-
crat, of Arkansas, chairman of the Senate
Committee on Foreign Relations.
Par1e1: Peter Clapper, ABC Capitol Hill
correspondent, and John Scali, ABC diplo-
matic: correspondent.
The ANNOUNCER. From Washington, D.C.,
the ~?.merican Broadcasting Co. brings you
"Issues and Answers:'
5071ator J. WILLIAM FULBRIGHT, chairman
of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee,
here are the issues.
Mr. CLAPPER. Will President Kennedy's pro-
gram~ save Berlin for the West without a
war?
Mr. SCALI. Are Khrushchev's Berlin threats
a bluff or the real thing?
Mr, CLAPPER. Is President Kennedy provid-
ing strong enough leadership at home and
abroad?
Mr. SCALI. Should we send troops to Cuba
to g;et back the highjacked' airliner?
The ANNOtrrrcER. You have heard the is-
From Sena,tie r?oreiKia ~,~.tt~..,.a~ ..,,..._._..,_-- - ?a.6.......,,/ ---- ---
Chairman J. WILLIAM FULBRIGHT, Democrat, or 52 countries to discuss, not just Ber n, of thing we should do which would
of Arkansas. but the whole settlement of the war, in- strengthen and back up whatever negotia-
Here to explore the issues are ABC Capitol eluding the statue of the other Eastern dons we might get into with regard to Berlin.
Hill correspondent, Peter Clapper, and with European countries-what has been done These things are all related.
the first question, ABC"s State Department there in accord with agreements and so on. MI. CLAPPER. Getting back to the Presi-
correspondent, John Scali. This might clarify the air and might develop dent's speech he called for our allies to do
Mr. SCALI. Senator, do you share the view some alternative. more. Sn a military way both in the Berlin
expressed by President Truman that Premier I thing to continue to look just at the nar- crisis and the long-range cold war toll. Do
Khrushchev is bluffing over Berlin? row question of Berlin may be not a very you think our allies response has been
Senator FULBRIGHT. I have no basis at all fruitful policy. enough?
to believe he is bluffing. i think he has a Mr ScALr. Well, Senator, you mentioned Senator FULBRIGHT.- No, I do not, with xe-
ver;~ serious situation in Berlin and he is disengagement as a possibility. Could you Bard to NATO in particular. They have riot
determined to try to improve that situation go into that a little more? What do you have fulfilled their quotas and I think we have
one way or another. I do not believe he ex- in mind? done more than our share in the past sev-
pects to precipitate a nuclear war over Senator FULBBIGHT. Thin has been sug- eral years, largely because we were able to
an
d.
h
Berlin.
sted and we rejected it, out of
Algeriae There
rted b
di
e
h
v
i
n
y
ve
been
ave
ich French
DRr. SCALI. You think this is Soviet-style Be
bri:nksmanship? think there was a Rapoki plan,
Senator FvLSercxT. Yes, I think every there would be a gradual drawing back of the axe reasons for it. The Germans I think
great nation indulges in this at times, but troops. Our theory was that ii Russia only among all of them have not done as much
I think when you say "bluffing"-if President drew back a little ways to her borders and it as they are able and capable of doing in
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 Approved For Release 1999/09/17 :CIA-RDP75-001498000200940041-5
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD -SENATE
es we should look to to carry a much because of the loss o eoemana oflthei dech- signed to replace one that was published in
1919, I believe.
greater part of this burden. nicians and it h
ad crippled some other in-
Mr. CLAPPER. What about the British? duF~tries, I believe an automobile plant; that nismw They hares clai~min hope for commu-
TheY are having economic troubles. they had lost a very large number of +F,a +,.,. _....~ .,,. __ g great things in
"~~=.u..;,~,?~ ~uati iney nod in East Ger- aganda or are they serious? ". ~ n +" 1' YIVY-
serious economic trotzbies at the moment. many.
The only good thing about that is .that ft 114r. "uCALI, Ixt any negotiations over Berlin, Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, it has a little of
looks as if it is about to compel Or corn- Senator, would you be willin to aece t an both. You said 1919, They have been pro-
tribtue to a decision to loin the Common concessions orF the part of the West which ceeding in the last few years on what they
Market. I think this would be a good thing closed West Berlin as an escape hatch for call 7-year plans. First it was 5, then it
over the long term although it may have reflzgees in an;y way? was 7, and now it is 20. It is a program
very serious repercussions in the near term Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, I think that that of development, as I understand it, not
for Great Britain. might certainly be a negotiable point. The unlike the 5-year plan in India and so on.
Mr. CLAPPER. Senator DAVITS among others truth of the matter is I think the Russians It is merely pro]ecting what they hope to
has suggested a loan, through Congress, to have the power to close it in an case. I do and it serves both as an indication of
Britain. How do you feel about that2 Y their goals and I think some oP those goals
mean we are not giving up very much be- they will certainly realize.
Senator FULBRIGHT. I would think the cause I believe next week if they chose to They may not all of them-we usually set
request ought to come from Britain first. close their borders, they could, without vio- our goals a little higher than we expect to
I think it is a little premature to go about lating any treaty right I know of. We have attain. We have done that-many people
euggesting loans. I don't know that they no right to insist that they be allowed to have done that. But I think it does have
need it. They have already indicated they come out. As :[ said I don't understand why propaganda value and at the same time I
are going to draw on the International the East Germans don't close the border wouldn't say that they don't expect to
Monetary Fund and that is what it is for. becteuse I think they have a right to close it. achieve a large part of it.
I would hope this Ss enough and I would not So vrhy is this a great concession? You don't Mr. CLAPPER. We possibly do the same
want to endorse such a loan. hava that right now.
Mr. SeALI. Senator, is it ossible to im Mr. CLAPPER. Senator FULBRIGHT, what thing, a capitalistic manifesto to act up
prove Atlantic Pact defenses without askin
ia' about a new summit meeting between Kern- our ideas.
our allies to reinstitute and in some cases ned;y and Khrushchev? How do ou feel Mr. FULBRIGHT, I think there are great dif-
lengthen the draft? about it7 Y ierences between our two societies. There
Senatot FULBRIGHT, I think this would Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, I am not ad- is a tendency to try to relate them closely,
be a very proper thing for them to do. I voca,ting summit meetings. 2 think the are but really the basic value of our society is
would think the mairF drive of the Pres1= Y the individual's freedom. We believe if the
dent's proposal is the F~tren thenin of con- very touchy tYrings. Unless this develops individual is given an opportunity, that the
ventional methods oi' warfare and that maturef tot Ik about a summit meetin s n w. ingenuity and energies of the individual
would be an important step, as he suggested We F~hould never exclude that ii negotrations released within the free society will out-
for our own program. at the diplomatic level lead up to the paint produce a managed economy, I think their
Mr. SCALI, Do you think the British' where it looks as iY there is samethin to kind of a goal is a little inconsistent with
should be exempted from being asked to agree upon, to discuss further. In this ?ur kind of a system if that is what you
spend significantly more for defense because- modern day it seems to be the fashion. I mean.
of their financial problems at the moment?: have a great pre:Judice against summit meet- ~? ScALL Senator, ii I may shift for a
Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, at the rno- ings as being dangerous and leading to-per- moment into your particular legislative
went they are apparently in very difficult: hags bringing friction to the higher level arena, in the past few days you have engaged
circulnatances. This is particularly with' and .making moire dangerous the outbreak of in a running debate with Senator GoLB-
regard to foreign trade, and this is why they: war, but they have more or less become WATER, whether in the nuclear age total vic-
indicated- the troops in Germany were such- fashion, so maybe I have to accept them. tory is possible. This has lead to some
a drain. This may not have the same prob- But I think it is premature to talk about rather lively exchanges. How do you think
lem at all with regard to their own man- a summit meetiing now. You are_doing in this debate?
power. Mr. SCALI. In line with the positive ap- Senator FULBRIgI3T. Really it was gust one
Mr. SCALI. Do you think the West Ger- proaa;h that you suggest toward negotiations, exchange. I made a speech 3 or 4 weeks
mans then should be. called upon pick up ; Senator, the idea -has been made that pear- ago that had nothing whatever to do with,
more of the tab? hops one of the ways to settle this problem or mentioned Mr. GOLDWATER. I was rather
Senator I''ULBRIGIIT. I do. The did increase would be to move the United Nations head- flattered that he had read it. Apparently
their contribution last Y he did
year
but I thi
d h
k
,
an
n
quarters to Berlin. What do you think of y
e answered it himself, ver
still they are the ones that are able among that? critical of my speech, and I simply com-
all of them to do more than they have done. ; Senator Fur.HS.IGaT. That is a very imag!- mented upon his.
We have been paying a very large amount, as native one. I s;aw that in print. I don't I felt since he is recognized as one of the
you know, in our own troops. They refused ; know whether that is feasible or not. r Principal Republican spokesmen, that it was
even to ConsiAer ~~?+rf ti,?~+,, .. ~,. ~,__ ___.__. - -
_
- w.o y~~~yia wua uwn
y rFxe vne U.N. at all and - ?---~ "" ?""""` '~' ~tus Instance and 1t
make more than they have. obJect to it. was a very short answer. I thought his con=
Mr. CLAPPER
Senator
t
d
.
,
o
ay more Germans
from East Germany crossed Into West Ber-
lin than at any time since the uprising in
1953. What is behind this and why don't
the Communists stop it?
Senator FULBRIGHT. It is a very curious
thing that they don't F;top it. I am told
many of these people are among the best
trained technicians and skilled workmen
in East Germany and ghat this has had a
very grave effect upon their industry. Tha
theory-we can only speculate about it-may
be that i
n anticipation of closing the frontier
this tremendous rush to get out is resulting.
And I have heard it suggested that the Rus-
sians are quite willing for them to leave
with the idea that they will fill their place's
with Russians; but I doubt this is a tenable
theory because the Russians do not have Fi
surplus population, .they need their popula-
tion in their own country, I.confess it is a
mystery that the East Geriria,ns don't stop
the emigration of these people,- I don't
know why they don't.
Mr. $CALI. DO you know of any specific im-
pact that this outflow of refugees has had
on production in East Germany?
Senator FULBRIGHT. I was told by a well-~
informed person a short time ago that one
succeed or it shouldn't have b
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era m.e is the idea that we cannot afford to tiIC ana meaningless phrase and that it mis-
talk a,nd negotiate. This seems inconsistent leads people in these days and I don't want
with our whole hilosho h of life, of oli- to repeat what I said, i didn't think you
P P Y P wanted me to, but I thought that he tends
tics, both national and international. When to oversimplify very complicated questions
I th1~Ik of all the talk that goes on here and it leaves, I think, in the minds of many
dome:~tically, that this Ls a characteristic df people some false impressions as to the kind
a democratic system, it seems to me we of world we are in and I don't think this is
ought to always encourage the quiet discus- very healthy to the development of sound
lion of any differences in this field and I policies.
think it is too bad that anyone who Sug- Mr. CLAPPER. 6enatOP, SE!natar GOLD WATER
Bests we discuss these problems is immedi- has called the Kennedy foreign policy weak-
- ately said to be an appeaser, that you arc kneed. And you yourself have called for
getting ready to give up something or that stronger Presidential leadership. What is
you aI?e going to compromise. It is going to the difference?
be a MCunich.
to take this attii;ude. We don't mean. and wrth Mr. GOLDWATER as to its being weak-
I don't mean thast we are going to give up kneed. I think that is another example of
anything: We arse going to discuss it. Cer- the highly oversimplified description of this
tainly we don't believe that this is the best situation. President Kennedy inherited a
possible solution to the European. problem? very bad situation, as we know. He in-
t~ leave it as it is forever. I am frank to herited the situation- in Cuba and in Laos,
say I don't see munch chance of an im rove- bath of them extremely embarrassing and
-went lout I always think we ought to dis- difficult for this country and I think he has
'Cuss St, done very well, except in Cuba. I thought
it was a mistake. I think he acknowledges
Mr. CLAPPER. Senator FULBRIGHT, the Com- that the effort was a mistake. Either it
munisiis have Just; published in the. last day should have been .done strong enough to
or two a Ilew Communist manifesto de-
een done at
Senator FULHRZGIiT. Well, I don't agree
A~~,n~~.et 7
 all. I hen to believe it shouldn't have
been doxxe at all, for reasons much too com-
plicated to go into here. I thought it was
a mistake to do that. Nevertheless that is
neither '.here nor there. I think he has done
very well and kept his head and he has
,spoken with restraint and I think this is
what is called for.
It is very easy to stir up a war. It takes
no brains and no skill to stir any country
up into a warlike spirit and you can go to
war, as countries have done throughout
history.
The people appreciate very little the man
a>ho tri.es to avoid these things and they
are constantly criticized for appearing to be
weak and compromising and so on, but this
is the thing that I value mast in the Presi-
dent, that he has evidenced caution and that
he has shown a desire to avoid a showdown
and a war, because I don't believe any of us
are going to profit by a nuclear war.
Mr. SCALI. Senator, speaking oP Cuba,
what duo you think of the demands made by
some Senators that we should use military
force to go in to get the highjacked Eastern
Air Liner from Cuba, if necessary?
Senator FuLeaxcHT. Well I know that is a
very provocative act that t~Iey did. There
are one or two things I don know about it.
In the first place, this morning's paper
would indicate this man may not have been
authox?ized to do it at all by Cuba, that he
was a freelancer who thought this was a
great fotunt and that he would gain credit in
Cuba. He was a nationalized citizen of this
country.
Mr. SCALI, Well the Cubans still haven't
returned the plane.
Senator FULBRIGHT. Well, it was a sort of
windf;xll for them and it is a propaganda
element. They can't use the plane I am told
because they don't have the machinery that
is necessary to start it but it is something
to talic about.
I would hesitate to say offhand that we
should not do anything there. I think it
would be very drastic to go to war over that
plane. We have 10 planes that our private
citizens have attached for private bills.
Perhz~ps we could work out something. That
is a campllcated matter. It is a little bit
like the tractors deal, I don't think it is
wortlx going to war about.
Mr. Scel,r. Well, Senator, Under Secretary
Bowles has suggested that the way to handle
Castro is to concentrate on aiding other
Latin American countries with their deveI-
opms;nt programs and letting Mr, Castro
wither away and die on the vine. Would
you agree with this approach?
Senator FULBRIGIiT. I think, generally
speaking, 1t is aright policy. Mr, Castro
is very irritating and embarrassing, but we
ourselves have much to blame ourselves for
over the past 60 years. We had Cuba. We
could have guided It in nearly any direction.
We neglected our opportunity when we had
the opportunity to do with Cuba, proper
things. Tt is embarrassing. I do not think
that; it would be any great achievement for
a country of 180 million people to go down
and knock off this fellow. After It is done
what have you done? What have you ac-
colnpiished and how have you contributed,
other than to have removed a little em-
` barrassment? I don't think I would do that,
and I think what 'you say is correct, that
we must concentrate on the rest of Latin
America, and ii it succeeds he will be isolated.
Mr. CLAPPEa. You were critical of the Cu-
ban invasion of the island, Are you satisfied
that there is no behind-the-scenes effort to
try it again?
:ienator FVLBRIGHT. To my knowledge
there is not. I know of these groups. There
is a big ad in this morning's paper that
would indicate they are seeking groups of
Chabans to drum wp enthusiasm and support
ia,^ this, but I assume you mean by our
C3crvernmelx~t.
CONGRESSIONAL ,RECORD -- SE
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Mr. OI:APPER. Yes.
Senator FULBRIGHT.I know of no ouch
plans.
Mr. SCALI. Senator, one o! the things that
seems to have aroused the suspicions of the
Republicans is an alleged plan to give dip-
lomatic recognition to Communist China
and to favor its admittance to the U.N., and
that plus whatever plans are underway for
recognition of Communist Outer Mongolia.
Do you see ~a!n....y reason for such suspicion?
Senator a'.,LBRIGHT. NO. I think in this
case we as a country are prisoners of our past
mistakes, if you like. The sentiments of this
country have been developed to ouch a pitch
our President has no freedom of action in
this field. Our Senate just passed unani-
mously aresolution supporting the view of
nonrecognition of Red China, which it has
done, I do not know, lb or 20 times. It has
become a ritual, a Republican ritual. This
stems from the old days of McCarthy in
which they thought-the Republicans be-
lieved, and maybe with reason, that they
were succeeding in proving that the Demo-
crats were soft on communism and this is a
hangover from those days and these very
difclcult taboos or whatever they are, voodoos,
voodooism, or prejudices or whatever you
want to call them, to overcome, so we go
through this ritual every year, repeating this
thing. And, of course, nobody in public life
can be in favor of recognition of China.
And also Mr. Chiang Kai-shek is involved
in this and we more or less take our orders
from him in this field, When he objects we
have always been very good about going along
with it.
Mr. Scala.
I guess this is the proper policy. I am not
objecting to it. He is important in that area
and we consult with him as we do in other
places. And i don't think we are going to
recognize Red China. I do not favor it at
this time. I don't know anybody who does.
I rather get tired of this repetition oY this
kind of resolution. Who is to say we should.
Yet we are forced to put another resolution
through, I haven't said we should. Nobody
said we should.
Mr. CLAPPER. Will we recognize Outer Mon-
golia?
Senator F' ULaRIGIiT. I dOUbt 1t-far much
the same reason. I think much could be
said for doing it, on the ground of infor-
mation, oP knowing what is going on in that
area, or being able perhaps to contribute to
the differences between China and Russia.
But fob the same reason that we will not
recognize Red China, because of the price of
dissension within our own ranks at home;
it is too great to pay. I don't know whether
it was wise or not. I don't know enough
about Outer Mongolia. But the reasons that
have been given by those who purport to
know would indicate that we might learn
something of value to us. But I think we
have no freedom ai action in this field
because of domestic politics.
Mr. CLAPPER. Senator, turning to domestic
politics, there is soxne word now that per-
haps the foreign-aid bill will not after b-year
loans, but just 3. Would this be an accept-
able compromise to you?
Senator FULBRIGHT. No, not to me. I am
for b years. When you say "acceptable," if
the Senate votes it, what do I do, jump off
a bridge? Of course you accept it. I am
against it but I think it would be very
foolish to do it and I shall not vote for it.
Mr. SCALI. IS there a compromise being
arranged-
Mr. CLAPPER. EXCUae me, i am sorry. I
Piave to Interrupt, here. Our time is up.
Thank you Senator F'ULBRIGHT for being
Mr. MORSE. Mr. President,
wish say a word about e c an
oft Committee an ~' re n l~ns.
$e ~s subjected to ck here on
Committee. I spe
As a matter of fact,
cause that confront
and mankind-nom
I wanted to say
show this afternoon
floor of the Senate the of
the colloquy, and the Rsco
itself ; but as a member of
tee, I rise s his witness.
my judg ent, not only
he Amer1 an people,
ortunate have a m
'ntellect, depth of
ge of hl Cory, and
oreign lacy issu
only t is count
e pers of the
BRIGHT
DtOS
COri1 1
ator
Fo
13219
er day?
speaks
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with the
that con-
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DEPARTMENTS dF LABOR, AND
HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WEL-
FARE APPROPRIATIONS, 1962
The Senate resumed the consideration
of the bill (H.R.7035) making appro-
priations for the Departments of Lobar,
and Health, Education, and Welfare, and
related agencies, for the fiscal year end-
ing June 30, 1962, and for other purposes.
Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, I now
turn to the subject matter before the
Senate. To my friend from Wisconsin
I wish to say that I usually find myself
in agreement with him in regard to
needed cutbacks in an appropriation bill.
It is with a heav Yiat I tell him
I have to le on this one, because
I do ieve the committee has
bra o the Senate, in a committee
To the contrary, I do not think the com-
mittee has gone far enough.
I have made some study of the hear-
ings, and I think the Senator from Ala-
 13220
R ..,
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bama will testify in support of the ob-
servation I now make. The committee
million, in round figures.
from Massachusetts, served on the Sen~
ate Committee on Labor and Public Wel-
fare, of which I have been a member for
some years, under the very able leader-
ship of the Senator from Alabama, wlao
chairman of the Appropriations Sub-
when he served on t;he committee. I
certainly agree that the President of the
fallible.
that the President of the United States
submitted his budget request in advance
of the hearings which the Senate com-
mittee conducted on this subject matter.
The President of the United States did
not have the advantage of the docu-
would have been the same if he d had
the same benefit of the enlight ing in-
Senator from Alabama [Mr~fiix.r.l.
by saying, "We ought back the Presi-
dent because this is a President's rec-
ommendation." I o y say, "This is the
President's recom endation before the
fact. This is t -President's reco~n-
this body 1 very valuable information,
on the ba s of which the committee has
made it nal recommendation."
in the committee, exactly as I appreciate
the problem which confronted- the Presi-
dent when he presented leis budget to the
Congress. Imagine all the demands for
appropriations. Imagine all the good
CQNG]ZESSI4rdAL RECORD -SENATE August Y
re it representatives of profes-
'- isory committees in the field
presenting a cross section, I
various centers, research
schools, and research au??
country. They recom=
'n excess of the sums
by the committee.
r from Alabama if
nt, the Senator:
orrect. The
cal research
~ ~n increase'
1_ ~priations
~of$195
Sean-
hxs'
he
e
caLUSes which were presented at the so-
calaed executive level in the develop-
even aSolon-ion could really be sure of
his wisdom ixx the decisions and recom-
me~;xdations the President has to make in
his final subrnission of a budget to the
Congress.
I stress the fact that the President
did not have the benefit, at the budget-
ary stage, of the documented evidence.
the Senator from Alabama and. his col-
President, not of mine. I will pass
judgment upon what course of action
That i,s why I cannot support my good
friend from Wisconsin in his amend-
ritents to cut back in this whole field of
health. I wish tc> say a few words about
the need from the- standpoint of public
interest and frorrx the standpoint of na-
tional defense in connection with ap-
propriations for health.
' Mr. ]?resident,. it is very easy to say,
in -the course of debate, when one feels
rather deeply about some subject before
the Senate, "This is more important
than anything else," or "This is more
important than something else." I try
t0 avoid that error in logic. I think it
usually is an error ixs logic.
public
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I wish to put it this way: I do not
think anybody can successfully- refute
the fact that the health needs of the
American people. are sorely in need of
greater attention by the Congress of the
United States... I think we in the Con-
gress for many years have been most in-
adequate in appropriating the minimum
amounts of money which ought to be
appropriated to seek to relieve suffering
humanity in the United States and else-
where in the Orld, for that matter, from
the scourges?Of diseases which take such
a heavy to~`day after day and year after
tions for heax't disease or cancer research,
or with respect to any of the other ter-
rible tolltakers of human life. -T would
rather err in the other direction, I
would rather appropriate more than can
be used,. with some check in the ap-
propriation to provide for a reversion
in case the money cannot be used effi-
ciently and effectively.
I wish to mention one small item. My
colleague, the Senator from Oregon
LMrS. NEUBERGERl has. commented up-
on, in connection with proposed legis-
lation,. air pollution in the United
States, the matter of gases which are
filling the atmosphere particularly of
our cities, apparently, so the scientists
say, as a result of heavy motax vehicle
traffic. There is not only the assump-
tionbut also now a body of scientific data
being collected which gives cause to be-
lieve there is a direct cause-to-effect
relationship between air pollution and
cancer. We had' better find out. One
thing we know is that the incidence of
cancer is increasing: We know that
lung cancer. incidence is climbing,
The Senator from Alabama and I cer-
tainly are not medical authorities, but
I think we have a legislative respon-
sibility to do everything that we can to
effect relationship between air pol-
gresses mar Tapidly or is more fatal or
deadly than ung cancer.
Mr, MORSE. That is true.
Mr, HiLis. 'le the Senator speaks
about lungs and spiratory disease, of
course the Senato has noted the tre-
mendous increase i the disease known
as emphysema.. We ave no cure for
that disease. It is a t rible disease, as
a result of which the cells in the lungs
break down, and- the broken-down cells
fill up with waiter moisture, which makes
it impossible for the oxygen to get into
the blood- stream of the body, and the
patient does not live long.