IMPLEMENTATION OF JOB EVALUATION POLICY ACT OF 1970 (PUBLIC LAW 91-216) HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON POSITION CLASSIFICATION OF THE COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS SECOND

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 22
• Document Creation Date: December 16, 2016
• Document Release Date: April 15, 2005
• Sequence Number: 2
• Publication Date: May 4, 1970
• Content Type: REGULATION

ed For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
IMPLEMENTATION OF JOB EVALUATION POLICY
ACT OF 1970 (PUBLIC LAW 91-216)
HEARING
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
POSITION CLASSIFICATION
COMMITTEE ON
POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
Public Law 91--216
TIIE JOB EVALUATION POLICY ACT OF 1970
Serial No. 91-23
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Post Office and Civil Service
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
45-304 WASHINGTON : 1970
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
COMMI E1 ON POST OFFICE, AND CIVIL SERVICE
'I IIAD)E( J. D171,SK1, Nrw York, Chairuntu
DAVID N. IIENDF,RSON, North Carolina, Vice Chairman
.1 It \ol.I' OLSF;N, Montana
MuitltI$ K. 1'DALL. Ariznna
Irtr IINit'N C. DANIELS, New Jersey
ROBERT N. C, NIX. Pcnusylvanin
.lA>Ii:S M. I1ANI,EY, New York
('II.1RLES 11, "'11 1)N, California
.1E)tt)ME It. WKALDMK. California
ItI' IlAitIr C. WIIITF;, Texas
W11.1.IAM It. FORT), Michigan
LE7; It. IIAMILTON, Indiana
PRANK .1. RRASCO, New York
iu)HER"E' O. TII?;R\.tiN, Rhode Wniul
GRAHAM t'I;ItCELL, Texas
110111-11T J. CORBETT, Pennsylvania
Ii. It. GROS", Iowa
GLENN CUNNINGIIAM. Nebraska
EDWARD .1, I)E.RIA INSK1, I1lInoib
1LPI,it'I' W. JOHNSON. Peunzy lvanbt
IrANILI, L. BI'T'1'ON, New York
WILLIAM L. SCOTT. V!rginia
JAMES A. Mci'LI"I&L, Idaho
THOMAS J. MI''IiILI,, Coil aet-ticut
DONALD E. LUKENS, Ohlo
LAWRENCE J. HOGAN. Maryland
t'ti tt.6K i' ,luu\anv. Chic) Cuunact and Staff Director
1.. iR6\Ttr\ I1aaY. Amsociate Staff Director
J MIX II. Maartyr. Coutrxcl
Wtt.t,txK A. Iact\e, Axxixttat St(tff Director
Tttt+.tttntns J. KazY. Senior Staff -daxixiant
J:IMES M. IIANLEY, New York, Chairman
ROItnier O. TIER'AN, Rhode Island JAMES A. MIcCLURL, Idaho
JI:I.OMF; IL WAL1111'. California GLENN CUNNINGHAM, Nebraska
WILLIAM I), FORD, Michigan TIIt)MAS J. MESKILL, Connecticut
GRAHAM PuReFIA., Texas
Ex O.Xcio Voting Mctutzra
1"II:4DI31?;CS J. DULSKI, New York ROIIEIRT J. CORBETT, Pennsylvania
(Richard A, Barton, Stmt Assistant, Room 207. Cannon Building-Ext. 629
till
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
CONTENTS
Page
Testimony of Oliver, Philip M., Director, Job Evaluation and Pay Review
Task Force of the Civil Service Commission____________________________ 2
Additional material : Public Law 91-216, subject of hearing______________ Iv
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
Public Law 91-216
91st Congress, H. R. 13008
March 17, 1970
21n 2(t
To improve position classification systems within the executive branch, and for
other parp.)ses.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled That this Act may Job t valuation
be cited as the "Job Evaluation Policy Act of 1970". Po11oy Ant of
1970.
TITLE I-CONGRESSIOItiAL FINDINGS WITH RESPECT
TO JOB EVALUATION AND RANKING IN TILE EXECU-
TIVE BRANCH
Sac. 101. The Congre hereby finds that-
(1) the tremendous growth required in the activities of the Fed-
eral Government in order to meet the country's needs during the
last several decades has led to the need for employees in an ever-
increasing and changing variety of occupations and professions,
many of which did not exist when the basic principles of job
evaluation and ranking were established by the Classification pct
of 1923. The diverse and constantly changing nature of these 63 Stat, 954,
occupations and professions requires that the Federal Government 972.
reassess its approach to job evaluation and ranking better to 5 use 5101 at
fulfill its role as an employer and assure efficient and economical a_g and notes.
administration ;
(2) the large number and variety of job evaluation and ranking
systems in the executive branch have resulted in significant inequi-
ties in selection, promotion, and pay of employees in comparable
positions among thaw systems;
(3) little effort has been made by Congress or the executive
branch to consolidate or coordinate the various job evaluation and
ranking systems, and there has been no progress toward the estab- 84 STET. 72
lishment of a coordinated system in which job evaluation and 84 STAT. 73
ranking, regardless of the methods used, is related to a unified
set of principles providing coherence and equity throughout the
executive branch;
(4) within the executive branch, there has been no significant
study of, or experimentation with, the several recognized methods
of job evaluation and ranking to determine which of those methods
are most appropriate for use and application to meet the present
and future needs of the Federal Government ; and
(5) notwithstanding the recommendations resulting from the
-various studies conducted during the last twenty years, the Federal
Government has not. taken the initiative to implement those recom-
mendations with respect to the job evaluation and ranking systems
within the executive branch, with the result that such systems have
not, in many cases, been adapted or administered to meet the
rapidly changing needs of the Federal Government-
Sac. 201: It is the sense of Congress that-
(1) the executive branch sheil,in the interestof equity, efficiency,
and good administration, operate under a coordinated job evalua-
tion and ranking system for all civilian positions, to the greatest
extent practicable-
(2) the system shall be designed so as to utilize such methods of
job evaluation and ranking as are appropriate for use in the
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : 6lA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
executive branch, taking into account the various occupational
categories of positions therein; and
(3) the United States Civil Service Commission shall be
authorized to exercise general supervision and control over such
a system.
TITLE III-PREPARATION OF A JOB EVALUATION AND
RANKING PLAN BY THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMIS-
SION AND REPORTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO
CONGRESS
SEC. 301. The Civil Service Commission, through such organizational
unit which it shall establish within the Commission and which shall
report directly to the Commission, shall prepare a comprehensive plan
for the establishment of a coordinated system of job evaluation and
ranking for civilian positions in the executive branch. The plan shall
include, among other things-
(1) provision for the establishment of a method or methods for
evaluating jobs and alining them by level ;
(2) a time schedule for the conversion of existing job evaluation
and ranking systems into the coordinated system;
(3) provision that the Civil Service Commission shall have
general supervision of and control over the coordinated job evalua-
tion and ranking system, including, if the Commission deems it
appropriate, the authority to approve or disapprove the adoption,
use and administration in the executive branch of the method or
methods established under that system;
(4) provision for the establishment of procedures for the peri-
odic review by the Civil Service Commission of the effectiveness
of the method or methods adopted for use under the system; and
(5) provision for maintenance of the system to meet the chang-
84 STAT. 73 ing needs of the executive branch in the future.
84 STAT. 74 SEc. 302. In carrying out. its functions under section 301 of this Act,
the Commission shall consider all recognized methods of job evaluation
and ranking.
SEC. 303. The Civil Service Commission is authorized to secure
directly from any executive agency, as defined by section 105 of title 5,
80 Stat. 379. United States Code, or any bureau, office, or part thereof, information,
suggestions, estimates} statistics, and technical assistance for the pur-
poses of this Act; and each such executive agency or bureau, office, or
part thereof is authorized and directed to furnish such information,
suggestions, estimates, statistics, and technical assistance directly to
the Civil Service Commission upon request by the Commission.
SEC. 304. (a) Within one year after the date of enactment of this
Act, the Commission shall submit to the President and the Congress
an interim progress report on the current status and results of its
activities under this Act, together with its current findings.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04?7 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
(b) Within two years after the date of enactment of this Act-
(1) the Civil Service Commission shall complete its functions
under this Act and shall transmit to the President a comprehensive
report of the results of its activities, together with its recommenda-
tions (including its draft of proposed legislation to carry out
such recommendations), and
(2) the President shall transmit that report (includin the
reeonunendations and draft of proposed legislation of the ~oni-
mission) to the Congress, together with such recommendations
as the President deems appropriate.
(c) The Commission shall submit to the Committees on Post Office
and Civil Service of the Senate and House of Representatives office
each calendar month, or at such other intervals as may be directed by
those committees, or either of them, an interim progress report on the
then current status and results of the activities of the Commission under
this Act, together with the then current findings of the Commission.
(d) The Commission shall periodic-oily consult. with, and solicit the
views of, appropriate employee and professional organizations.
(e) The organizational unit established under section 301 of this
Act shall cease to exist upon the submission of the report to the Con-
gress under subsection (b) of this section.
Approved March 17, 1970.
FaISLATIVE tnSTORY:
5t SE RFPORr No. 91-823 (Comm, on Post Office & Civil Service).
SENATE REPORT No. 91-713 (Comm, on Post Office & Civil Service).
coNGRES5rONAL RECORD, vol. 116 (1970)1
F. 16: Considered and passed `louse.
"sr. 4: Considerer and passed Senate.
Interim
reports to
2ongress.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
IMPLEMENTATION OF THE JOB EVALUATION POLICY
ACT OF 1970 (PUBLIC LAW 91-216)
MONDAY, MAY 4, 1970
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON POSITION CLASSIFICATION OF TIIE
COMMITTEE ON POST OFFICE AND CIVIL SERVICE,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in room
219, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. James M. Hanley (chair-
man of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. HANLEY. The purpose of our hearing this morning is to hear
Mr. Philip M. Oliver, Director of the Job Evaluation and Pay Review
Task Force of the Civil Service Commission, established pursuant to
Public Law 91-216 (H.R. 13008). This act was signed into law by
the President on the 17th of March, and Congress holds much hope
for it in revitalizing and updating the obsolete classification systems
which currently prevail.
The report issued by this committee during the past year has been
described as the most comprehensive report on classification systems
since the Classification Act of 1923. I believe this to be the case; it,
in my judgment, was certainly long, long overdue. Classification has
become a very complex problem which can be only described as a
di l emina.
Fortunately, at the beginning of the 90th Congress, it was finally
concluded we had waited far too long and it was high time for the
Congress to take some action.
The Congress, itself, had defaulted in this manner because of the
fact that we had to deal consistently with matters acute in nature. We
did not have the time or resources for a long-range study. Thus, Con-
gress let the problems in the system develop over the years.
The Civil Service Commission, itself, again in the recognition of
its farflung activities and responsibilities, did not have the time,
apparently, or the tools, to get into this matter, and again by virtue
of the fact that it, too, was plagued with so many matters on a day-
to-day basis that were acute in nature, did not have the wherewithal
or the time to proceed with this activity.
So as I see it, for many, many years we have been sweeping this
under the rug, and the net result is a situation that leaves a great deal to
be desired.
Unfortunately-and this has been proven through the investigations
of this subcommittee over the course of the past several years-the
systems are ridden with inequities. We have the unfortunate practice
even of interagency pirating.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
So we were delighted with the reception of the Congress with regard
to I1.li. we were delighted with the observations of those who
testified before this committee with regard to the need for this activity.
'l'he. "upport, as most of you know, was overwhelming. So this support.
was, indeed, a great source of great encouragement to members of this
connniittee and mj-self.
And, obviously, it allowed its to develop a good case for the program
we look forward to now.
As you know, the Senate looked upon the need as the house did, and
looked upon it with equal enthusiasm. Senator McGee was as eiathusias-
tic about it. as 1. The coo terat ion front that body was excellent, it con-
curred completely with the House version of the legislation, so that it
would not be at all delayed, that we could get on wits the task at hand.
The administration, itself, was very anxious that we move in this
direction. The Civil Service Commission was also anxious.
So that brings us up to this point, and although the legislation was
only signed into law on the 17th of March, here it is, the 4th of May,
and already the mechanics of this operation are underway. We are
delighted with the good judgment exercised by the Chairman of the
Civil Service Conmiission in the appointment of Mr. Oliver, who, cer-
tainly again, in my judgment, has some outstanding qualifications. He
is certainly well equipped to accept. this challenge; there is no question
in my mind about. his ability. I am confident that he will succeed with
the task at hand. I recognize it. as a Herculean one, an extremely- difli-
cult one, and one that is going to require a great deal of detail, but
certainly_ lie bring. to it excellent credentials and I am confident that
the end results of his activities is going to produce a major reform
within this system.
Mr. Oliver, it. is a pleasure to welcome you here this morning. Ilope-
t'ully, some other members of the committee will be aboard. Many of
ns had airplane difficulties this morning due to the weather, but hope-
filly other members will join with us and enjoy your presentation.
With that, it is it pleasure to welcome you to this committee.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP M. OLIVER, DIRECTOR, JOB EVALUATION
AND PAY REVIEW TASK FORCE
Air. (h.iaiaa. 'l"Inink you. Mr. ('liairmaan. I do have a short state-
ment t would like to read.
Mr. I IA N LE r. Proceed, pl ea se.
Mr. Ou.ivmi. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen. I ant grateful for the op-
portunity t4 a al>peat' before you herd today.
I aummI'hilip Oliver, I)irector of the .1oh Evaluation and Paw Re-
view Task Force created by the enactment of Public IAaw 01-21G.
'I'bis act embodies Ilotise*bil l 1 *11008 introduced by' C'hairnian IIaiilev.
I it accordance with the desire and the intent of the committee, I report
directly to Mr. IIaiupton, ('hnirnuan of the Civil Service ('onimission.
I assumed my position on April 1:3, 1970. Tinier the provisions of
the act, I would like this morning's meeting to he considered the
Iirstreport of the task force.
This morning I wish to discuss the task, its complexities and the
*eneral approach I am taking:
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : 9A-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
First, however, it is necessary to say I have read carefully the com-
mittee report and the hearings. The' staff and the committee are to
be commended for an outstanding report. It is comprehensive, thought-
ful and clear in its direction. I do not intend to duplicate the exhaus-
tive study made by this committee, however, to define the task some
research is mandatory.
My preliminary research indicates that there are about 65 schemes
for evaluating, classifying, paying, and administering jobs in the
Federal. Service.
Fortunately, there is considerable variety among these plans-
variety not only as to application of one or more of the four recognized
methods of job evaluation, but also as to administration.
I say fortunately because this is evidence that individual. agencies
have been trying to develop viable plans to meet changing conditions.
The Civil Service Commission has in the recent past contributed
by the formulation of the Coordinated Federal. Wage System. This
combines, both in format and administration the best features of a
variety of former schemes.
The immediate impact of the application of these approximately
65 schemes is, of course, on. the 2,900,000 Federal employees. The
other interested parties include over 100 national and local unions
representing about 52 percent of all. Federal employees and having
about 2,300 excul.sive recognitions covering about 1,400,000 employees ;
at least three dozen associations having Federal employees among their
membership; the 535 Members of the House and Senate; and the
general public since wages, salaries and benefits for the Federal pay-
roll approximate some 15 percent of the annual budget.
Therefore, any serious proposal to modify the status quo arouses
considerable interest. I am cognizant, therefore, of the need for com-
munication from time to time to all interested parties.
I welcome suggestions, recommendations and criticism.
On the other hand, it is hoped that because of the time restrictions,
there is not an unwarranted demand for justification of viewpoints.
The need is for a comprehensive, all-inclusive system for evaluating,
classifying, and paying employees in the executive branch of the Gov-
ernment.
Within this system there may and most probably should be several
plans, each designed to meet the specific needs of the individuals, agen-
cies and organizations concerned. The linkage mechanism which has
to be devised to provide and assure integration of these various plans
into the overall system is the key to the entire task.
I would like to point out that while it is in theory possible to deter-
inine relative values of jobs either in nonrnonetary or monetary terms,
the ultimate validation of a scheme perforce dictates that both. eval.na-
tion and pay become inherent parts of the scheme.
The designations in my title recognize this. Further, some considera-
tion has to be given to the relationship with the Cabinet and sub-Cabi-
net. executive schedule.
The "task force report will have some recommendations on this rela-
tionship for your consideration.
The end product, therefore, has to have the following charac-
teristics :
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/047 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
1. 11. has to be credible.
It has to be simple: that is. understandable to both supcrvi-
so; s and e11 ililovccs.
a. It hits to be e(lnitahle: that is. really result iiti (,quill pay for
c(puil tvnrk.
1. It huts to tie i' iat ivety iIlex pensi%-(.I o ad III ill ister.
II goes almost without saving that Ilie. current uclmin isir.itors and
creators of I rte exist inj- sc'lieriws have personal bias and defensive posi-
I icuts about their 1) rogra itis. The many organized till' iott groups ire hv-
ginnirtg to feel their way toward what I kettle will be re,ponsible atti-
I titles 9 141 Inst urrs eorucrninr rlirir male.
In a,ldition, iltimerons profs' io11al 1111(1 scntiprofexaonal workers
are nililating with 1o(-iet'vs and assoc=iations who are seeking rt'rugni-
1 ion of their views h nuintigenient. The public career employee is not
I he same ais a private indtist rv eit-gloyee and early ackiio vlectgement of
t his is needed. AVliau I till hoping is that all interested hart ies accept -
the alxrve objectives of the comprehensive system and work with my
task force anti this ctnuntittee to develop a workable, acrcptahle
soliit ioai.
I ant presently engaged in recruiting a sniall staff of competent
specialists to comprise the task force. The group will be balanced- -
represcnf ing a broad range of experience in at niunlx,r of Federal or-
ganizations.. They will )lave ac?tuatl working experience in it, variety
of situations here and UVeraeas. in organized and nouorgatiized units,
and with expertise ill professional. managerial, white collar, and blue
collar jobs.
I intend to auglitcntr this group with three snialladvisory conmmit-
tees, one each reprtesenting industry, moons, and associations, and
metnhels of the Interagency Advisor} Group.
The eormtiittecs will he asked to address themselves to specific prol,-
le11ts and to tile(,( wit It ruy task force at IKerio(lic intervals so that the}?
rail once advice. .111+1 coiuisc'l_ It is also my intention to provide this
cotutnitfec with( file types of progress reports they have indicated
they wish.
ow ;as (ci f lie a l (grouch In he followed:
I ant in the process of developing a fairly detailed agenda of the
research to he condiu'ted. the briefings needed to become thoroughly
i'antiliar with the existing schemes, the State systems to be reviewed.
and a ('heck of progrress hieing uiade in countries like Canada and
England.
It. Is lily intent to hc'till(. tit positively respond to the many reconi-
iiienchitions presented t(i this (ctttuuittee that a re (,obtained in tite report.
and hearings.
And I tnightt just say that this notebook (indicating) contains the
statements presented by witiwsses before this committee. with all of
their rteoilitnendatioaas its to what needs to he done. And just one look
at the size of this d(winnent gives you sonic idea of the task of trying
to respoiid posit ively to these sug ;estions.
1V`Iiile I recognize toy resgti I ises cannot gossipy sati-fV evei.volie,
what is inrportant is ([lilt the reconiniendatinns he given some serious
consideration.
Then. I believe. we will he in .i position to choose and select the
tec?luai(pics and hest lenttitres of the niauy scheines and weave a coin-
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : Q AA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
mon thread into the plans that evolve so that a comprehensive system
truly exists.
This will be followed by extensive validation and discussion with
interested parties in order to add the refinements that will make the
system work. The completed report will have to contain, therefore,
the comprehensive system, detail of the plans within the system, pay
structures that satisfy and are compatible with the system and the
identifiable linkages among the plans, plus legislation to place the
system into operation.
In addition, a transition plan and time schedule will. be developed to
assure an orderly conversion.
In conclusion an administrative procedures manual for guidance to
the Commission upon approval by the Congress will be required.
Some thought will also be given to the training program that is so
important whenever ft new system is installed. This will. have to extend
down to the lowest level of supervision to assure total understanding
and adin iuustration..
The act makes no provision for the task force working with this
committee once the report is submitted. Perhaps this committee will
want to consider how it plans to review the report, hold hearings and
present the legislation to the Congress.
I believe some continuity will be needed before the final product
is passed into law and given to the Civil Service Commission to im-
pl em ent.
The task is a difficult one. It can be made easier if all involved co-
operate by concentrating on the final objectives, and I include here
all the organizations I have metitioned above.
Changes will be required in existing organizations and in attitudes
in order for this to succeed. There will have to be a reasonable amount
of give and take by all. parties. I do firmly believe the wishes of this
committee as expressed in the act can be met and am looking forward
to, continued close contact with you.
Thank you.
Mr. IIANLEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Oliver.
Congressman Tiernan may have to leave us because of another com-
mittee activity; thus, at this point., I am going to defer to a great
member of this. committee, who has played a most responsible and
effective role in the drawing of time language of this bill.
Mr. Ti7 RN NJ . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Oliver, I want to welcome you before the committee. I have had
the pleasure. of meeting you before.
One of the matters that comes to my mind initially is the fact that
you have so many of these different national and local unions repre-
senting Federal employees, and you have set forth that apparently
you intend to appoint advisory groups from these different segments
representing employees. Ilow do you intend to select them? Or have
you made the selection, first of all ?
Mr. Or.ivrst. I have not made the selection
Mr. TIE]iN.vN. The committee very nicely sidestepped that prob-
lem, you see, because there were just so many unions and so ninny
different groups. We started to figure out who to put on there and
the committee would have been so big we did not. think it would be
effective. I am wondering how you are going to handle this.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/0/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
Mr. (h.lvra. I would like to answer that, sir. There are well over
11)4) individual unions, local and national. Ilowever, if you look at
then!-;Ind it member of illy stall. Mr. Shapiro, who is with me here
today, has looked at them and made all analysis of them-one of the
things you immnlediately discover is that there are about eight or nine
groups that represent about 81) llermPnt of all of the unions.
Some of these unions. as roil know. are grouped into federations.
My proposal is to Contact each of these larger federations and asso-
ciations and ask therm to designate it Hoot. or a wommn, to work with
inc ill an advisory group.
What 1 hope to have is aboilt eight, or at the most 10 people oil
each of these small aclyisory ?ommittees, hoping that at any one
meeting we would lure maybe a half it dozen of t.heln who can make
tile. meeting, to spend sonic time with us. I atn going to use this tech-
nique knowing that -some people may be hurt at. not, tieing included--
seeking a, niwnlbershil> from the larger fold.
lfr. '1'ir:I.N.1N. Mr. Oliver, I am not. too sure whether you clearly
understood the intent of time conlmitiee that you report on a monthly
basis. Is it. my nnder,tancting that you are prepared to report to the
coimiluit tee moiltltl v J
Mr. Oi.ivr:ia. I have given alert problem some considerable thought.
There is no doubt. in my luind but that the coninnittee will desire a
nlontllli' report. There is also no doubt in may mind that r will submit
am, monthly ripol'f. to them. I till boiling that Mfr. Barton and I can
sit down at an early date this week to come up with a report format
that the conlmiitee n ill lino satisfactory.
I would also, however, like to do something a little i nore than t hat.
I would like to have the committee have. in its possession my own
schedule and my own milestones for the total project, which Darn in
the pro ess of formoiizing now : and perhaps on a quarterly basis, by
submitting a more detailed report to you against the milestone, you
will feel not only that progress is being nnade. but that you can offer
advice and counsel is to those avenues of thought or those particular
areas that yon feel are not t vttitig adequate atlent ion,
But you will hit ye it monthly report.
Jfr. 'I'iFaN x. Chant is just, my personal feeling, and I am sure
other nmemhers of the committee may have other thoughts on it. Rut
I think for the I line being that we should receive Giese monthly y reports
and from that .%-oil might develop some pattern ditferent tlia-n thart.
its you go along.
The statenu'utr ill[ Ilie third page of your statement where. you say.
"The public career i inplovee is not thie same as a private industry
ennployee,'i in what manner is It(- not.?
11r. 0i.nvi:li. As you know. T have spent 15 r,'ears in Federal service
and some l(3 =ears in private industry. '4,nil I think it is very important
that, people in private industry as well as people in Government and
the unions recognize that the two groups of employees are not the
,ame. They are not the stone for a number of reasons.
First of :dl. it public career employee makes certain sacriticts when
he conies into the Federal service. Ile make:: these willingly, willfully.
and in full recognition that he losses some freedom liven he comes to
work for till, Go veruit tent. He gets great rewards, however. 'Phis is
one reason why I ant happy to be back in Federal service.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 :'CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
He has a greater span of responsibility than his counterpart in
industry.
There is no comps is itiOtr thall most of thtmt eaau consider.
Secoml, the rnatit who feels through (9)11tart with iris stiitperiots in
private industry that he really has a way to the top, aril who is bv-
ingrgroomed -and I think main ,rogrrssive employers probably sl)etul
more. t inie and Woo on rrnnnlirtg people Whom thee' feel can make
it to the top than flit' Goyerlunent has in (he past- -faces the dilemma
of wht'then lie should lntmrh himself on a second career. nnavbe short
Irim, and risk lnsin~, the opportunities that he liiinlcs lie before him
in hi-,own cotnpaity.
't'here acre mmllv companies that will not grant leaves of absent e
to their employees for short-term t'ioverninenf assigtnmelits. I rail into
that sitnittion in I'ittshttrgh Kist Irriiht%% wheel I was illlelwiewiii r a
titan from \Vestinglhmise. 1, is (lotll)t fir--:old he is now vrestlirig with
Ilie problem, after 12 year's with his contiiatnr--whether there is a
eal?eer or a short-tet?ui sI ins for Inim with the (htvertuuent.
l'he oilier sarrili(e, I t kink. than is worthy of Itote_ is the personal
feeling that it person develops within lliniself, file ilia, frogg in the
little potnd eonnept tt'i.slls the little frog in Ilw hii-? p(in(1 e(illrel)t---it,
work for an organizal i(an, even as small as the I )etrnrttnleat of I..nor.
where f was most, recently ht'Fore cotniti(r aboard liv r, with 10,011tt
employees. is a large organization. but wh(m volt work for HE M% with
11(1,(11x), it is ens X. to get lost. it is easy In lase identity. '!nd compare
this wills the last rulnpaity that I was Willi. We had 3.11(1(1 employees. 1
personally ].new almost half of (lierll fir more, maybe. And so did the
vice president of the cite uiitiy. It wa possible to w'or'k more closely is
a team., to he less possessive, to I'vii that We, Ilse =croup, were making
:ul ell'cu?t..knd then to tnoye into one of these gigantic organnizations
and literally take years io make your 1m11k is s(intethingr that is of
deep c'otnceru to people. They have talked to me athout it, have asked
tile 1t(lw they call survive, and wlletlit'r it Is wol?t11 it.
)-()It know how I feel about (his, or 1 would not he siltluY_r here. [lilt
II ose a re sacrifice'.
Mr. ILext,t:z. I stn. llayiug= explored this side of (fit' coin from the
standpoint of sacrilicts, now let us tutu to the other side of the coin
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CdIA-RDP72-00337RO00400100002-2
and reflect for a moment or two on the rewards associated with this
type o f service.
In your judgm.ertt, do we create a balance here, or should we be
doing more in the way of creating initiative and desire for employ-
rnentinthepublicsector?
Would you say we have arrived at state of balance here; are we
doing enough; should we do more from the standpoint- of fringe bene-
fits, et cetera, et cetera?
Mr. OLIVER. I would say YOU have cone a long step forward in the
last half dozen years. I would like to talk about the rewards. You
know, I. am extremely interested in. the young college graduate group,
and one of the most encouraging things to me in visiting college cam-
puses and interviewing young students, is the zeal with which they
seek Government employment.
Why is this'? 11,T011, I think one of the motivating factors, one of the
real 1 Lases is the recognition by the young maul or woman that- even
though it is a gigantic organization, there is an opportunity to do
something for the common good. You simply cannot, in private in-
dustry, do something; for your fellow maim with anywhere near the
amount of impact that you can in the Government.
The management intern program which is being run throughout.
the Government is one that should be doubled,- or quadrupled, in my
opinion. It is grievous to me to talk io agency heads who tell me that
because of cuts in. tare budget they are going t:o pull. back on -.heir
management intern program.. This is a sad thing. There-- are many
companies in private industry that regularly recruit about 10 percent,
of their work force from young graduates. The Government should.
really expand this, because there are rewards for the young man and
the young woman, and I have talked to some crackerjacks.
Another reward that exists, and I referred to it once before and I
want to come back to it: for the individual. wh.o- really seeks authority
and power in terms of impact and in terms of motivating the large
groups of people or large organizations, there is no comparison be-
tween, industry and the Government. A man like Mr. Finch, head of
IIEW, or the people over in Defense, Justice Department, these large
Government organizations, the impact they have on every citizen can-
not lie matched, and that is a, reward.
Now, in terms of fringe benefits, I would like to assure you that
I have for years very carefully studied the fringe benefit package of
the Federal employee. \Tith the, recent improvement in the retirement,
system, and your generous leave program, your sick leave program,
the fringe benefit package is more than competitive. There are one or
two small. areas whore I think you could consider some leeway.
The business, for example, of permitting people to .come, in for
interviews from around the country, to see the Government in opera-
tion, which is impossible now, or perhaps some adjustment in how you
relocate first assignees, and intensive attention to middle: management
training.
'I'ltere just is not enough as compared to private industry. These areas
should be explored. But your basic fringe benefit package is- excellent.
Mr. ILtcr.EY. I -am delighted to hear you say that. I a.m delighted,
too, with your observation of the ideals which have become quite
apparent with regard to our young people and their -desire to- con-
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
10
t riltiite ill 50ule way to the comnion good anal to do this through public
er~ic as opposed to their o"11 security or their own material gain.
So this is indeed heartening and rellvels great credit on so ninny of our
Young people, our ollege graduates today. And I have observed this
situation that pieraiIs. A. I say, 1, too, aan lie,lrteued, as you are.
1Ir. II:~til,r:a. Mr. Tiernan f
Mr. Are %,ou going to have sufficient tilrae to present a re-
port. to the (.`ongres., and this committee f
Mr. OLIN YR. You mean by 3l arch of 1972
Mr. Tlt:tiNax. Ys.
Mr. OLIYtac. Yes. sir. I expect to beat that schedule.
JIr. TlER,AN. (food.
Mr. (=)a.nrai. The reason I would. like to beat that schedule is so that
this committee will have ant )le time to review it before the task
force is disinis.~ed, unless You decide to use sonic other technique. I am
not saving this in teruas of self -laerpetoaation, I have a triimher of other
things I want to da.
But, yes, you will have your report. I think the time span is ade-
tliiate. I am not saying it will necessarily be easy, but, yes, you will
have your report.
Mr. 'fiEtax:rN. We all recognize the very difficult. task that has been
presented to You, and I just want to ltiake sure you do have enough
time. And if we could get the report in March of 1972, it will give
its time to get some legislation prepared and introduced. The tendency
in Government, I find, is to have these studies and reports prepared,
allow It few years drift by, and the nest. thing you know, the report
is criticized as not being valid 2 or:, years Iater.
Mr. OLIVER. Mr. Tiernan, I9i2 is an election year, and I would hate
to think of having to start all over again with another Congress.
1Ir.'rlt:at~.~x. Well, you might have to, anywvay--
1Ir. Ouvtat. I tun y, but at least I would like to try to get it in to you.
1Ir. TInuxAx. Mr.Ilanlev and I are due to be here.
Mr. OL,avl:it. To be here and to be present, I hope so, too.
Mr. Tltatx_tx. One other question and then I have to leave. I see
you were formerly with the Foreign Service.
iIi'. (}Lla'F:lt. Yes, sir.
3h-. T EINAN. And you have indicated that you read the report of
the testuuoily. I ani sure you are aware of my particular concern
about the selection of employees by the Foreign Service. I do not like
to put personal direction in testimony to you, but I ant hopeful that
this situation can be corrected. I fail' it to be it very poor example of
selection of Federal employees in a very imports rat, agency of our
Government, particularly where. we are dealing in many foreign coun-
tries with so few of our employees in that agency being black.
Mr. OLIVER. Well, that is part of the problem ill your testimony
on this organization which I reviewed 2 or :, days ago. It pointed out
t wo or three other areas that ought- to be looked aat.
I do not intend to imike any exceptions in in', study. If I react the
intent of the committee rightly, the Foreign Service will be very
carefully looked into.
You might be interested to know that in the Foreign Service there
exist live different s?henies. out. Of the 6 that I mentioned, that I was
able to identify. Thant .)resen(s to problem to theiii, tot).
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIn-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
Mr. TIERNAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HANLEY. If we might for a moment go back to this monthly
report requirement. As you know, there was a great deal of feeling
through the course of our hearings that suggested that we could not
really objectively accomplish our mission unless the work was being
performed by an outside commission. We disagreed with this theory
and we felt that it could be accomplished under the mechanics finally
written into this law.
We got into the possibility of an advisory group working along with
this unit, but in attempting to develop a formula that would be equi-
table we encountered a blank wall.
So it appears to us, in the wisdom of this committee, that the best
way of handling this so we would be able to keep our finger on the
pulse of your activities, to be able for us to keep abreast with what you
are doing, and for other interested parties to keep abreast, that by
building this mechanism into the law, it would serve this purpose.
And it was not intended in any way to provide you with obstacles or
headaches.
The intent here is that you will be reporting on a month-to-month
basis, so that we will be aware of what is taking place. This informa-
tion will be public information and available to whomever might be
desirous of it. And in this way, on a continuing basis, we can deter-
mine the reaction. If we encounter an area of difficulty, then hopefully
we can get to it then and there as opposed to developing some ferment
and objection to the activities of this unit. If we do not attempt to
head off difficulties as they occur, then perhaps as we are coming into
the home stretch with the plan, we will encounter insurmountable dif-
ficulties which might defeat the intent of Congress or delay the intent
of Congress with regard to our great desire for a, new system.
This is one of the things we are attempting to eliminate through
this mechanism.
So I believe that it will work out quite well. You can be assured
that we recognize your problem. You have assumed an extremely diffi-
cult task, and you are not going to please everyone. We realize we
have got to effect the best compromise that, we can, but we intend to
move along on a consistent, continuing basis toward the final goal.
For the record, Mr. Oliver, can you provide the committee with a
little background with respect to your experience in the Federal
Government?
Mr. OLIVE_ I took a degree in personnel management from George
Washington University, with the specific intent of making a career
out of the Federal service. I was fortunate enough to have as my first
real substantive place of employment the organization known as the
Civilian Personnel Division of the Secretary of the Army, which is a
policy formation group that exists at the very top of the Department
of the Army.
One of the things that I learned quickly was that the adaptation of
policy to operating practices was and still is a major stumbling block,
and, at my request, I spent a great deal of time in the field,- trying
to carry out the dictates of the centralized staff.
It is one thing to write a policy; it is quite another thing to make
it work in the field.
I spent 4 years with that organization, and it was like another col-
lege course. My overseas tour of duty of 4 years with the Department
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
1'2
of State in Vienna, Austria, gave me quite another outlook to the
problem. Here I discovered in the Foreign Service that they had no
personnel program whatsover for their overseas posts. This was in
I developed the program for the 2,400 to 2,500 people at the U.S.
mission to Austria. The pr(x.edures that I developed in recruitment,
training, position classification surveys, salary structures, labor nego-
tiations. were all duly reported and recorded and adopted by the De-
partment of State, and with some adaptation Many of these are still
in use in overseas theaters.
I am sorry Mr. Tiernan missed that statement, because one of the
things that the Departiuent. of State has done in its Foreign Service
is that it has begtm to devote more attention to this personnel admin-
istration problem overseas. And in some measure I hope I contributed
(luring those 1 years.
The importance of maintaining both a public position as a repre-
sentative of the United States overseas and at the same. time build a
rapport with other Government representatives in the host country
was educational, and is far more complex than most of us realize. It
comes as no surprise to nie, but with some considerable unhappiness.
to learn of the movement iii and out of Government of employees in
overseas areas because of these problems that they have never been
really alerted to.
The whole redesign of the Peace Corps that is now taking place, I
think accurately reflects some of the problems that I found.
In my military service, which I include as Government service. I
was a civilian personnel director-officer over as large seven-State.
region, procuring Air Force equipment. and terminating contracts,
and it was here that I 'rot any first real exposure to private industry.
And when I decided after 14 years that I ought to see. what the other
side of the fence looked like, I did it because of what I had learned
during this exposure.
I also spent. 1 year, IS vOn know, as a Special Assistant to the Assist -
ant Secretary of Labor for Policy, and during that time I was actively
engaged in some major pieces of le islation. including the new welfare
bill that the House passed under the leadership of that very eminent
gentleman, Wilbur Mills. And that in itself is an education-to watch
a professional work.
As you know, the bill is now with the Senate Finance Committee.
So I feel that my Federal exposure has been fairly broad. It has
been oversew;, it has been out ii, the field. it has been both in head-
quarters and in line operations.
1Ir. Il.axLEy. Well. certainly your experience in the Federal service
is most impressive. Tell ms a little bit about. your experience in the
private sector.
Mr. ()iavF:ia. Yes. In 1954, illy 4 years with the State Department.
was approaching an end in Austria, and I was faced with the prospect
of moving to a somewhat less (ltsirable post. I decided that I would
like to see the other side of the fence, and I spent 2 years in Venezuela
with Creole Petroleum, which is n Standard (ail of -New Jersey
subsidiary.
It might interest the committee to know that what we installed in
that 2 years was a job evaluation system based on the Civil Service
standards system that is presently used in the GS structure.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : pA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
Mr. IIANLEY. This is most interesting.
Mr. OLIVER. I can assure you that in a small organization, with the
9,000 employees that they had at that time, it was infinitely easier
than here in the Federal service. The system is still used down there
and in small organizations such as that one it works very satisfactorily.
I then returned to the States upon completion of my 2-year assign-
ment, and took a similar job with Tidewater Oil out on the west coast,
installing a job evaluation, classification, and pay system for this
petroleum producer.
Upon completion of that assignment, I went to Lockheed Missiles
& Space Co., for 5 years, as a compensation adviser in management
development and training officer for this company, primarily concerned
with developing the top layers of management and with executive
compensation plans. I had a, staff' of some 22 specialists, and during
that 5 years installed their basic systems for appraising and compen-
sating executives.
I then spent an interesting 6 months in England and Scotland with
a private consulting firm, working on labor relations problems in an
automobile manufacturing plant. While there I was instrumental in
installing a system that resembles the Scanlon plan and also the Kaiser
industry plan, which is an incentive program. It is one that bears
some examination, where an employee's compensation above a base
rate is based upon his productivity, and the greater his productivity
and output, the greater his direct cash rewa.rds.
I returned to the States and became director of industrial relations
for Philco-Ford Corp. in their western operations.
I worked specifically in their electronics and aerospace divisions,
administering a totally decentralized industrial relations program,
and there I played the other side of the fence, because we had no union,
and although I was very actively engaged in unions it was in a little
different role.
It was during this period of time that I began to teach intensively
at junior colleges and 4-year colleges in the Bay area, teaching man-
agement courses and personnel administration courses.
Also, I became very active in public affairs, spent 4 years as an
officer in what you people here in the East call the United Crusade.
I was an active board of directors member of two chambers of com-
merce, and I worked as a member of the board of directors for a num-
ber of mentally 'disturbed and emotionally disturbed and handicapped
children's organizations.
Mr. II\NLEY. Certainly your combined experience in both the public
and the private sector evidence the excellent credentials that you bring
to this task.
Now, you have mentioned unions and I am reminded to ask : what
role do you feel collective bargaining might play in a. new classification
system ?
Mr. OLIVER. That is an interesting problem. As you know, in pri-
vate industry the unions in many companies bargain not only for
wages but for job classification. And in certain branches of the Gov-
ernment, this is also true, such as in TVA, in the Department of the
Interior, in some of their damsites, these other locations in the field.
In the broad sense, for the broad groupings of Federal employees,
both in the field and here in Washington, it seems to. me that the Com-
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/041427 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
mission, the house Post Office and Civil Service Committee, and the
Congress itself, should move fairly slowly, so that, they build on a
firm base what their real attitudes are, The prerogative of matta-entent
to determine What work has to be done and what- is reguirecfto ac-
coanplish the task cannot he lightly given away or made subject to
collective. bargaining, without some trade-of on the part of the em-
plovees or their representati yes.
There atv some very innovative tools developing in State and city
organizations, techniques for bargaining or negotiating under com-
pulsory arbitration that bear review.
There is to doubt in my mind that the system that we will sulanait
to von for your review and consideration will be very carefully ex-
:uaaiiaed by the union people for ways and means to emable them to
have the say in the :action, as it were.. I have no positive recontmenclar-
tion at this time. I have been giving it a great deal of thought. I have
disc ilssl?d this with Mr. Hampton and hope to continue to discuss it
with people such as you and your committee. to get your feel for the
problem. It is acomplex one.
Mr. 1 L~ti r.r:y. Well, it certainly is, and we will look forward to a coai-
siderable dialog with regard to this subject matter.
To switch for a moment to the concept of position classification
utilized in the private sector, its adaptability to the governmental
sector: what possibilities would you say exist here?
Mr. OLIVER. aI would like to suggest that this is a very fertile field.
I had a discussion With a member of any stair on this very point this
morning. One of the things the Government can well learn from
industry is to ttse position or job evaluation its a management tool
far more extensively than it does.
In private industry. for example, the job evaluation technique
is one of the keystones in organization structuring. And when you
establish a new plant, or a new division, the personnel director/maaa-
ager, works with the finance people and the others concerned-the
engineers and the operating people- assisting in developing an orga-
nization that has preset within its creation he levels of responsibility
and the types of jobs that are required.
The Government, 1 think, could go a long way toward following
this type of a technique. There is another area where job evaluation
works actively in industry which the Government ought to consider,
and that is in the development of new business or new contracts.
In many companies in the private sector, when a company lids on a
particular bit of business, an important part of the total package
is the manpower required, the number of people, the skill levels, a
cost factor, its well as in organization structure. So that the proposal
submitted for the bit of business is a whole contains engineering
spcecificat ions and people specifications.
In the Federal Government this technique could be used, for ex-
ample, when we develop new agencies or new bureaus to take oil
new tasks, as we are doing in the public welfare area.. for example.
It is in these two areas that I think we could make significant
contributions.
Mr. Il.ANLEy. Fine.
Mr. Barton, do you have any questions?
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CbJA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
Mr. BARTON (subcommittee counsel). No, sir; I think we have
covered everything I was thinking about.
Mr. HANLEY. Just one further question : Do you anticipate any
major changes in pay schedules, as a result of your ultimate recom-
mendations?
Mr. OLIVER. I suppose that depends on what you call "major." I
would like to assure you, sir, that as I indicated in my statement, it is
like bread and butter, they have to sort of go together. I would like to
recommend to this committee, from my experience and from the work
that I have already begun, that they 'be receptive to some significant
modification in the existing pay structures and pay systems. The testi-
mony itself pointed out some of the problems in terms of cost-of-living
factors between high- and low-cost areas in the country, and I have here
a number of recommendations from people suggesting the feasibility of
regional schedules or locality schedules.
We also have at the other end of the scale some serious problems in
pay relationship among top levels of Government employees, people
with tremendous scope of responsibility for billions of dollars of fax-
payers' money, and their link to the sub-Cabinet and Cabinet and
legislative salary structures.
Somehow we ought to be able to rationalize these things and reach
some understanding between the doers, the operators, and what it takes
to motivate them, and the planners, the developers.
There are certain specialized groups of employees who. receive now
preferential treatment and status in terms of pay structures. And this
should be examined. This borders, I realize, on that classic argument
of rank in man versus rank in job which,,of course, is tied to pay. And
this will be examined.
Yes, I expect that I will be asking you to look at, particularly dur-
ing some of these monthly reports, some of the approaches we are tak-
ing and the concepts we are thinking of, so we can get your guidance
in this area.
And I hope you will be receptive to some of our views.
Mr. HANLEY. You can certainly be assured that that will be the case,
because this has been a problem that this subcommittee has wrestled
with for years, and we are certainly looking for a better way.
I have no further questions, Mr. Oliver. I want again to express
my pleasure at your coming aboard in this matter. I am most aware of
the sacrifice you are making; certainly you will enjoy, I am sure, great
satisfaction ultimately in the knowledge that your contribution, hope-
fully, is going to be so meaningful to our Nation's governmental
process.
From the monetary standpoint, as your testimony has evidenced,
we are talking in terms of a great deal of money, about 15 percent of
our national budget being directed in the avenue of payroll, so cer-
tainly your service in this area, your service up to date, has been most
impressive and your service in this arena, this area, I believe, is going
to earn for you the gratitude of every American. .
It is not u glamorous job. It is a very detailed and difficult one,
but you certainly are well equipped, and there is not a question in my
mind that you are going to master the challenge that you have:
I want to assure you this morning of the full cooperation of this
committee as you pursue the road whead.
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
 Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2
16
Your testimony was quite enlightening, you spelled it out quite
well here, and certainly, again, with regard to the members who did
not have the opportunity to meet you personally, they will be reading
your testimony and they will 1w looking forward to meeting you per-
sonall v at a subsequent meeting here.
11'itli that, my deep appreciation fur your appearance here this
morning. We will look forward to a delightful association with you.
Mr. O .LVE.. Thank you, 'Mr. Chairman. I consider it a privilege to
be able to work on this job, ant! I aot most eager to produce something
that y( at will find satisfacto ry.
Hr. HANLEY. Well, again, your enthusiasm is certainly most heart-
elling to us.
Wit 11 that, until the call of the Chair, we shall adjourn.
('Thereupon, at 11:25 a.m. the hearing was adjourned, subject to call
of the Chair.)
Approved For Release 2005/04/27 : CIA-RDP72-00337R000400100002-2