AL-QADHDHAFI ADDRESSES GENERAL PEOPLE'S CONGRESS

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400068-7
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 18
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 1, 2012
• Sequence Number: 68
• Publication Date: December 19, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/02/01 : CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400068-7
Ald'Al Z7-
V. 24 Dec 85
ALGERIA
FLN, Polisario Officials Hold 22 Dec Talks
LD231033 Algiers Domestic Service in Arabic
0600 GMT 23 Dec 85
TH AFRICA Q I
[Excerpts] [Al-Qadhdhafi] A delegation from Sanaa is present; it
represents [word indistinct] the establishment of a Jamahiriyah
system and an attempt in North Yemen to establish a people's
system or people's authority. [applause and chanting]
[Text] Rabeh Bitat, FLN Political Bureau membei nd chairman
of the People's National Assembly, yesterday reived Mahfoud
Ali Beida, Polisario Executive Committee mem er and chairman
of the Polisario Foreign Relations and Inforrt}ation Committee,
who was accompanied by Mansour Omar,/SADR minister of
foreign affairs, and Mohamed Salem Ould Sadek, SADR
Presidency secretary general. They reviewed the results of the
Polisario's sixth congress, recent devel?pments in the Sahran
people's struggle against Moroccan occupation, and successes
and victories achieved at the domestic/and diplomatic levels.
Brother Bitat sent a congratulatory, message to Mohamed Ould
M'Barek Ould Rahal on his election as chairman of the Saharan
Bendjedid Receives Mali rt'esident's Envoy, Message
LD241112 Algiers APS in English 1023 GMT 24 Dec 85
[Text] Algiers, 24/12/85 ZAPS) - President Chadli Bendjedid,
received Monday JibuOrallo, the Malian state minister in
charge of the industrial and tourism development and special
envoy of the Malian president, Moussa Traore. Diallo handed a
message to PresidenjrChadli Bendjedid from the Malian head of
state. ,p
France's Dufoix Meets Bendjedid, Departs
LD231429 Al ers APS in English 1349 GMT 23 Dec 85
[Text] AlgielDec 85 (aps) - President Chadli Bendjedid
audienced1here Monday French Minister of Social Affairs and
National Aolidarity Mrs Georgina Dufoix who handed him a
message from French President Francois Mitterrand. Mrs Geor-
gina D/foix left Algiers today after a two day official visit to
Algie Va. In a declaration to the press, Mrs Dufoix qualified her
visit s good and said it will have a great impact. She also
un rlined that the French Government is doing its best to fight
ra ism and give the Algerian community more dignity and
security.
LIBYA 13rl - ~1
Al-Qadhdhafi Addresses General People's Congress
LD191609 Tripoli Domestic Service in Arabic
0857 GMT 19 Dec 85
[Speech at Libyan General People's Congress by Colonel
Mu'ammar dhdhafi; chairman of the Revolution Com-
man ouncil, on the subject of the draft agenda for the 23
December Basic People's Congresses; monitored in progress -
live from Tripoli]
First of all, we welcome this Yemeni delegation headed by Dr
Ahmad al-Asbahi, secretary of the General People's Congress
Permanent secretariat. [applause] In fact, Yemen is naturally a
Jamahiriyah, by its nature. Basically, its path is a Jamahiriyah
path. It is well known that Yemen is the origin of the Arab race;
it supplied the Arab homeland with the most important Arab
migrations prior to Islam which the Romans called Berber and
who are now found in North Africa. Most of them are found in
Morocco, the Canary Islands, and Algeria and a few in (?Jabal
Nifusah) and some oases like (?Siwah) and (?Awjalah). These
migrations were supplied to us by Yemen and south of the Arab
peninsula more than 10,000 thousand years ago. The pre-Islamic
migrations populated North Africa. However, after they were
driven away from the coastal areas by the Romans, they took
refuge in the mountains and the Romans called them Berber.
Those called Berber constitute the very old Arab migrations
supplied to us by Yemen; the origin of the Arab race. It is the
human storage of Arabs. It still is the human force in the Arab
peninsula, which is considered almost devoid of inhabitants
except for Yemen. Yemen, in fact, is the north [word indistinct];
Yemen is the one which has sanaa as its capital. As a result of
colonialism, another situation developed witht he establishment
of another state in South Yemen and a state in North Yemen.
The Canary Islands, which belong to Spain, and are claimed by
Africa to be African islands, are called the Al-Khalidat Islands
in Arabic. Their inhabitants [words indistinct]. They constitute
the last of the Arab migrations to North Africa and after that to
these islands [words indistinct], including Malta whose inhabi-
tants are African as is well known. Yemen is originally a Jama-
hiriyah by its nature; the people are armed by their nature and
the authority is with tribes. the tribes are similar to people's
congresses which means they are people's tribal congresses.
[Words indistinct] Yemen did not submit to any foreign colonial-
ism; it could not subjugate it because the people are armed and
the authority is in people's hand.
Yemen is closer to the Janajiriyah system, by its nature, than any
other state. We welcome them and thank them and brother 'Ali
'Abdallah Salih who sent these brothers. [applause] They have
honored us with their presence and their interest in what is
happening in this part of the Arab land. They have come to attend
part of the people's congresses' meetings. It is a coincidence that
they have come to the general people's congress meeting today.
There may be [word indistinct] in Yemen to know how people's
congresses are formed. Let us assume that we who are present in
this hall are inhabitants of this region; all the inhabitants of this
region. We, men and women, are meeting in this hall and formed
a basic people's congress; [word indistinct] from the base which
is (?outside) the people's congress. There will be elections and all
citizens in this region met in this basic people's congress. The first
thing they did was choose a secretariat of this congress. [passage
indistinct] This is how selection is made; for example, so and so
would [words indistinct]. This is the secretariat of the congress.
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This is in the people's congress, basic people's congress or general
people's congress or municipality congresses; in the same way.
Here we have the secretariat of the congress.
Role of Basic People's Congresses
The inhabitants of the region have thus formed a basic people's
congress [words indistinct]. They choose a secretariat to admin-
ister the congress; this is the secretariat of the congress. Now the
people's congress is formed; the authority and decisionmaking
belongs to it. However, who implements decisions which are
made? There is need for a people's committee which will imple-
ment the decisions of the people's congress [words indistinct].
This group will be chosen through discussions within the General
People's Congress. This is how things will happen: Discussions
will be held on this person or that person; one will be called useful,
another useless; there will be objections to someone; he would
then be rejected; another person would be blessed with hands up,
by free debate. If someone has anything against any candidate,
then he would say: I have an objection; this person would not
be suitable to be a member of a People's Committee. This would
continue until all discussions result in the election of the People's
Committee. This is how a People's Committee should be.
This will be the model for the People's Congress, its secretariat
and the people's committees. This will be at the grassroots level,
at the municipality level, and at the Jamahiriyah level; that is,
the General People's Congress. All this should occur at any basic
People's Congress. The population will meet, and form the Basic
People's Congress. They will choose a secretariat; then they will
choose a People's Committee [word indistinct]. Any decision
issued at the level of this region where there is a population, is.of
interest to the population of this region. The Congress in question
would issue the decision because it would be in charge, and would
be administered by the People's Committee. This People's Com-
mittce is accountable to the People's Congress, and the latter may
bring it to account. At any of its meetings, the congress may bring
the Committee to account. This also concerns the Secretariat,
[word indistinct] the administration of the congress, and then the
congress would replace it.
Likewise, should the People's Committee fail, the congress will
replace it. If some members of the Committee fail, then the
congress will replace them, or some of them, etc. [passage omit-
ted: al-Qadhdhafi asks secretaries present to raise hands and be
counted; lie recalls their functions].
There are 1,443 Basic People's Congresses [BFC] throughout the
Jamahiriyah. This means that the entire population of Libya is
deivided into 1,443 Basic People's Congresses. All the pop-
ulation, men and women. Any Libyan coming of age becomes a
member of the BPC. So now, 1,443 congress secretaries from all
over the Jamahiriyah are meeting. They are here to decide, but
they have brought with them the decisions of (?local) congresses.
The People's Congresses are sovereign. They issue decisions and
laws in the fields of politics, (?organization), peace, and war;
while the People's Committees administer the policies and are
accountable to their own congresses. Then all the Jamahiriyah
delegates meet at this encounter. All congress delegates coming
a
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from the remotest areas of the Jamahiriyah meet here, together
with the secretaries of the People's Committees; in addition, the
secretaries of the General Congresses involving producers, man-
ufacturers, professionals, workers, and farmers. This is in addi-
tion to the workers, farmers, manufacturers, professionals,
students, teachers, and others who are members of the Basic
People's Congresses.
These are the foundations of People's Congresses and People's
Committees; the foundation of the Jamahiriyah regime. A people
formed this way possess everything: power and (?wealth). The
government would end; the citizen would receive arms training;
he would bear arms, get to know them, and possesses them.
Citizens would then go on patrol and be in charge of guarding
the borders [words indistinct]; the people would not need an army;
the Army would disappear. Wealth would go back to the people.
[words indistinct].
There is one point that I would like to explain for the second
time: people's security: Every citizen, in accordance with the
law issued by the People's Congresses, man or woman, can be a
member of the People's Security. This is in accordance with the
law, taking into account age and [word indistinct]. If people come
forward to become members of the People's Security, then the
masses will have assured their mission, and the police would
disappear. [words indistinct], a local People's Security assumed
by citizens in every village, every town, every street. In such a
case, there would be no need for anything at the Jamahiriyah
level.
Concerning justice, it is the same thing: Courts exist locally
which might become temporary; I mean, its members could be
temporary, with a new group becoming court members for a
given period. It would not be necessary for one to be a law
graduate to become a judge or a court member. Any five people,
agreed upon by people, could form a court and deal with any case
and issue judgments, even death penalties, if death penalties were
to remain. If this occurs, the Secretariat for Justice would
spontaneously disappear.
[Words indistinct] would assume the security tasks itself, includ-
ing traffic, fire services, criminal investigations, intelligence, etc.
Citizens would assume this. Thus, the Secretariat of Justice
would spontaneously disappear. In fact, these things resemble
what was happening in old days in Yemen, tasks assumed by the
Shaykh or the Islamic jurisprudence man.
Regarding the story of purging the apparatuses of justice and
people's security, and reviewing the laws governing them - well,
I do not know what is meant by this, and I am not going to discuss
them at all; let those who have laid them down discuss them. It
is their business. I do not know what is in them. [Passage
indistinct].
Some people believe that by raising the issue of promoting cattle
breeding, they will be provided with camels, sheep, poultry, and
feed. Well, it is up to you and all Libyans to save money from
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other things, to cut spending on clothes or food and supply your
animals with feed, sheds, and veterinary services. Do not think
that camels and livestock will come out of nowhere to satisfy your
request. If you want to expand in some area, then you should
initiate cuts on something else. Cut spending on something and
expand elsewhere. The budget is here before you. If you decide
to expand in the domain of livestock, then allocate to it the biggest
amount from the budget, and deduct the same amount from other
fields and other needs. This is the situation. This is how the
bueget goes, and no one can make further demands for camels,
livestock, and poultry. There can be no further demands. There
are figures here in front of you on the budget that could be
adopted in 1986. You can distribute it as you wish on animals,
farming, industry, schools, tourism, sweets, or football.
[Unidentified speaker] Excuse me, leader. As far as the munici-
pality of Al-Fatih is concerned, the point on the agenda concern-
ing expansion in poultry and camel breeding is a fundamental
point that should be raised on this occasion, with the leader
present: The fundamental points presented in the agenda are a
problem of income. The problem is one of administration, no
more, and no less. The clauses presented or repeated by the
Secretariat of the General People's Congress, whether regarding
full mobilization, expansion, etc., indicate shortcomings in the
administration process, because the fact is that now most projects
are interrupted, and they lack financing. So people are. now
repeating their previous decisions, saying: Our decisions have
not been carried out.
Expanding is quite a good idea, since there should be self-
sufficiency, whether at the municipal level or that at the Jama-
hiriyah level. However, the problem is one of income, and
implementation is completely nonexistent.
[AI-Qadhdhafi, interrupting] What Basic Congress do you repre-
sent?
[Unidentified speaker] Qasr 'Abd al-Jalil, Municipality of Al-
Fatih.
[Al-Qadhdhafi, addressing himself to Dr Miftah al-Usta'Umar,
secretary of the General People's Congress, who is present]
Doctor, this Basic Congress will prepare an explanatory memo-
randum concerning poultry [words indistinct]
[Unidentified speaker] Thanks.
Aziziyah, Sirte, and Tripoli. The study of the problem of drinking
water was raised by the Basic People's Congresses in the Bin
Jawwad area, and is the sole item that has reached us in the
Municipality of Sirte. The Bin Jawwad area depends on a
desalination plant that has broken down more than once, and as
of now its production falls short of accommodating all the region
with drinking water. Therefore, the Basic People's Congresses'
masses, who have already adopted this decision: Asking for
help, are stressing their previous suggestions that the services
concerned or the Electricity Board should tackle this problem
and work out fundamental and appropriate solutions to the
drinking water problem.
On the other hand, regarding seawater pollution, it is known that
the Municipality of Sirte is one of the municipalities where oil
ports are to be found, and these ports have caused the pollution
of the beach with oil residues from returning tankers...
[Al-Qadhdhafi, interrupting] What do you want? What do you
want the people to do?
[Unidentified speaker] What we want is a study by the General
People's Committee for Utilities to resolve the drinking water
problem in the Bin Jawwad area, and also the preparation of a
technical study to tackle seawater pollution.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] What I would like to say to you is that the
people's congress, and not the people's committee are in charge
of formulating the memorandums. Furthermore, you could be
deceived in the people's congress because when you ask [for
something] in a word, this word goes up to the people's committee
that is responsible for implementation and which itself for-
mulates law and makes decisions; it formulates it in the manner
it wants. You have made certain demands and the people's
committees turned them into memorandums. Some of them have
been miscarried and others the committees have formulates in a
certain way; the committee probably felt that it can not imple-
ment this project as such, so it (?rearranged it). Then it sends the
memorandum, and you start discussing it. Instead of using the
committee, deliberate your own memorandum and try to find a
way to implement it. The people's congress sits to discuss the
memorandum the committee addressed to it. There is no alter-
native but for the people's committees to listen to what the
people's congress have to say. Any such issue proposed by a
people's congress must be formulated into a memorandum at the
present time and before the convening of the [basic]people's
congress. The people's committees then have to receive these
memorandums and sit down to discuss them.
Drinking Water
[AI-Qadhdhafi] Accommodation and housing; study of the prob-
lem of drinking water and the introduction of rules for water
consumption, and the issue of seawater pollution. Let the person
who presented these items explain them to us. Who presented
them?
[Unidentified speaker] Regarding the sector of accommodation
and housing, a study of the problem of drinking water and the
introduction of consumption rules: These points were raised by
congresses in Zlitin, Binghazi, and Anniqat al-Khams, al-
Tell us what you want with the drinking water. Let it be clear.
Someone appears from (Bin Juwwad) saying that the desalination
plant is out of order, for example. That is it. The issue could be
referred to the municipality of (Bin Juwwad) and Sirte. This [Bin
Juwwad] was, excuse me, an Italian drinking bar, expanded by
few exploitative shops, without any production or anything.
Goods are imported from outside for the shops, and some cars
pass by carrying some exploitative foreigner seeking a petrol
station so that he can buy some petrol and find a cafe. This is
(Bin Juwwad) originally; now you tell me that it is a city with
250,000 people. From the beginning it was not designed to be
such. Where is science and where is the committee that is
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NORTH AFRICA
responsible and that signed to say that (Bin Juwwad) is a place
for a city and that it should expand to 250,000, to 500,000, and
to I million; or that said that Tubruq is a city. Zuwwarah will be
a city, Sirte Valley will be a city and Ajdabia will be a city.
Ajdabia is a station for caravans which you have turned into a
city after the revolution. Now we have to search for water for
them. Since the beginning, experts have decided that it cannot
be a city. Tubruq, which you are talking about, how many were
in it? Ten houses of smugglers. Now it is a city with 500,000
people, and you are asking for drinking water and (?machinery)
for it. From where? Science, experts, and the country have not
decided that this will be a city. That is it. Whoever built in it
shoulders his responsibility. Let it be short of even free water
[hurr]. If your mood prompts you to live in this place, you can.
However, we have no electricity, water, or supplies to bring to
you, nor a transport system nor telephone. When you decide and
tell the experts that a place is a city to be founded because water
is available, as well as people and sources for living, then we will
shoulder its responsibility.
However, when you see a place that was a cafe before the
revolution with some shops selling to bypassing cars, and because
you have money you bring trucks loaded with cement and build
houses, and bring supplies from other cities, then it becomes a
city and you ask for water. From where can we bring you water?
When the Libyan people receive a memorandum from (Bin
Juwwad) in this form, they can argue that we had not decided
that (Bin Juwwad) is a city liable to expansion, and it is not
originally a city. When a memorandum comes from Tripoli, the
Libyan people can say Tubruq is not a city and has no viability
at all and we have no water. All of its life it was not a (word
indistinct]; and even if it was destroyed tomorrow by Egyptian
bombs, you would have to shoulder the responsibvility. I am not
responsible for any building in Tubruq. Tubruq at any hour could
be turned into barracks and trenches, missiles firing and bombs
shelling. It will be saved from no calamity. Originally, this is a
battlefield. Who said that Tubruq is a city? Count the houses
that were in Tubruq before the revolution. Even there were some
houses before the revolution; the defunct regime was deceiving
you. Either you have water or a source for living [or not], [words
indistinct] only distributed a few houses, ten or twenty. When I
came after the revolution I asked: Where does water come from
to you? They said we get it from Sirte. Where do supplies come
from? They come from Benighazi. Why are you living here? one
of them said he was a director. Director of who? Director of those
people. So, in order to make him a director, they brought him
people! And you? He said I am the doorman for the director in
the directorate. The other, what are you doing here? He said I
am the director's clerk. The other, what are you doing here? He
said, I am managing the petrol station. The other, what are you
doing? He said, I run the shop for teh benefit of those passing by.
Then I said to them: Then you are just making money and you
want to manage a city here. There is no city.
The people's committee in charge of implementing this resolution
are to fix the charges about the consumption of water as fol-
? lows: a charge of 50 dirhams shall be made per cubic meter for
a maximum consumption of 25 cubic meters a month. A charge
of 200 dirhams shall be made for every cubic metre of consump-
tion over the maximum level. [words indistinct] If you want to
economize in drinking water consumption, the one who can
consume I cubic meter pays 50 dirhams in charges. If one
consumes more than 50, then he pays 200 dirhams. [words
indistinct] that is it. Be responsible for yourselves and economize
in drinking water consumption. This committee is good and this
is correct.
Well, there is a memorandum, law, or something like this,
concerning the point of drinking water. Let the people's con-
gresses discuss them [word indistinct]. These are housing and
amenities, the [word indistinct] of education, work, study, and
training in the positions of production. In the general mobiliza-
tion there is nothing of this kind, work, study, and training at the
positions of production. This resolution accepted [words indis-
tinct]. Well, if this [word indistinct], this means that tomorrow a
secondary school or a teachers institute is transferred to Jabal
Hasan, lives in tents, trains him on the use of weapons, studies
there and produces, drills wells, or lays down the pipes [words
indistinct]. The students should not say tomorrow: No we are
not going there, or their parents say, our sons will not go there.
The teachers should not say: No we are not ready to live in a
tent, and the boys say we will not live in a tent. This is what work,
study, and training in the positions of production means. If you
decide it, its implementation begins in this way.
You have already decided on general mobilization. Tomorrow we
take a university college and put it in another place, in tin huts,
tents, or cottages. Put it at [word indistinct] today you will palm
tree, train on arms, study. [as heard] This is study, training, and
work at the sites of production. [words indistinct] An administra-
tion is transferred, a company is transferred, an establishment is
transferred, a secretariat is transferred, an army camp is
transferred [words indistinct). This is the work, study, and
training at the production sites. Where there is a production site,
people transfer. If they are studying, they will study there; if they
train on arms, they will train there. This is what this phrase
means. [words indistinct] This should be submitted to the people's
conferences and if it is decided upon, then no one will be able to
oppose it. If you do not want it, do not approve it. This is coming
from the majority of the municipalities, well then (?it should be
decided at the level of each municipality). What else doctor? This
should be submitted to the people's conferences in accordance
with the explanation I have just given.
Expansion of the technical institutions and the concentration on
vocational education within the context of the new educational
structure:
This was not approved before? [passage indistinct] No this also
was not approved and was demanded by 27 conferences in
Benghazi, 2 conferences in (Ghiryan), (19?) conferences in
Ghadamis, 4 conferences in (Marzaq), 5 conferences in [words
indistinct] and 21 conferences in Tripoli. [passage indistinct]
I believe that the expansion of technical institutions was approved
a long time ago, the expansion of the technical education base.
But, the conferences perhaps [words indistinct]
[Unidentified speaker] With regard to the educational structure,
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in accordance with its approval in the previous session, some
municipalities, according to their capabilities, have begun to
implement it and other municipalities have not begun implement-
ing it until now. The word expansion indicates that this indeed
has been implemented, but theire is a need to expand it. In fact,
this resolution was made at the previous session, and I believe
that its repetition means a repetition [words indistinct].
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Well this is a repetition then. Communications
and maritime transport: the reshaping of the Libyan Arab
Airlines and maritime transport. I do not understand what this
means. Planning and the economy; the unification of the importa-
tion bodies [words indistinct]
A simple explanation of the unification of the importation bodies:
There are basic people's committees. (?Their secretaries) consti-
tute non-basic people's committees at the municipality level.
Then there are general people's congresses which consist of the
secretaries of the people's committees in these municipalities. In
the end, a general people's committee should be formed, a
qualitative, specialist committee. Let us suppose it specializes in
economics and external trade. [passage indistinct] The general
people's committee for the economy, the general people's com-
mittee for economics and external trade, some of this kind. But
inside the Jamahiriyah there are dozens of companies, establish-
ments, and bodies which wants to import. One imports raw
materials for his factory, another imports a machine for his
factory, one imports clothes, one imports sheep, one imports
[word indistinct], one imports olive oil, one imports henna, one
imports bananas, one imports sweets, one imports [words indis-
tinct], all the things useful to society, with which we confront
America and Israel. All these parties which import, now each one
of them submits a request to the central bank to transfer money
from my budget for abroad to buy with them (?Christmas trees);
another demands money to buy [word indistinct] on the occasion
of the Muslim's Christmas, (?the first for the Christians and the
second for the Muslims); another requests a money for the
purchase of sweets; another wants money to buy toys with the
American flag on them. This way the bank receives requests; how
many sides import [word indistinct]
There are 70, 80, 90 establishments, companies, parties, all have
submitted requests to the central bank for money transfers [words
indistinct]. Each side belongs to a certain secretariat; all the
parties , establishments, belong to a certain secretariat. They
should submit their requests to their secretariats [words indis-
tinct] until all the secretariats complete their formulations. They
transfer them to [word indistinct] specialist, to the general peo-
ple's committee for importation and external trade, for instance,
and say that these are all the requests of the parties which
(?belong to us). The transfer is done in the name of the secretar-
iats. In other words, (?it) receives three, four requests, four
secretariats, five secretariats, each secretariat is followed by 20
establishments [words indistinct]
The committee responsible to Libyan people for external trade
and imports revises all these requests and on the basis of the
resolutions of the basic people's congresses decides that such a
request is a first priority, another is a second priority, and another
Q 5 NORTH AFRICA
is a third priority. [passage indistinct]. Then what links our
economic and external trade relations with abroad is this com-
mittee. The Libyan people can then tell this committee that they
have decided to economically boycott Britain, America, and
West Germany because they are enemies. When there are 100
organizations, (?you lose control over them). You will find 50
organizations importing from Germany. But this organization
will say that the Libyan people have decided to boycott West
Germany because it protects terrorists and because it is the
enemy, as it supports the Israeli enemy, and because it is an
American base.
We will prevent it from gaining benefit from anything. We will
boycott it and deprive it of billions. Instead of that billion going
to West Germany, the People's Committee for Economy and
External Trade, in implementation of the policy of the Libyan
people, decided at the basic people's congresses and drafted by
the General People's congress, boycotts Germany. Thus these
orders will go to North Korea and even China, but not West
Germany, or they will go to Yugoslavia.
But now everyone says I import to the value of 1,000 dinars from
Sweden, 5,000 dinars from Switzerland; another asks a trivial
question on another matter. This is the meaning of the unification
of the [word indistinct], the unification of importers.
Our economic relations with the world should be handled by one
organization, led by the policy of the Libyan people [words
indistinct]. It is they who could oppose many requests. They can
turn down a request if it is one of consumption and the Libyan
people said that consumer goods should not be imported.
That 5 million dinars that you spend on the purchase of henna,
the Libyan people said if anyone wants henna let him plant it
here in Libya. Because anyone who puts something on the market
is like a merchant, he is not interested in the economy of the
country. He imports from abroad, that is all. When an establish-
ment is responsible for the installation, or what ever they call it,
of course the marketing of these installations was wrong or these
installations which you have [word indistinct].
What does an installation, a factory, means? It is not an organi-
zation that buys and sells. It is responsible for clothes. The people
who work for an organization that imports clothes in most cases
are not interested in the economy of the country, inasmuch as
they are interested in your being satisfied with them because you
have provided them with clothes. [as heard] The provision of
clothes could be at the expense of the economy of the country,
and at the expense of its future. It is said that anyone who
demands something will find it: the one who wants nylon will
find it as will the one who wants cotton, wool, silk, colorful
clothes, small, or other clothes such as Al-Sadat's drip-dry suit
[words indistinct].
Anyone who asks for anything finds it. He will say, oh well, those
who are in charge of importing clothes are excellent, promote
them again, and even raise their salaries. Why? Because any
clothes they want they can find. You took your money and give
it to other countries of the world [words indistinct]. If you have
money and give it to someone and tell him to buy you something
he will buy you anything. He will bring the milk of the ghoul in
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V
cans, like rose milk. it is a matter of money, that is all [words
indistinct]. -
(?Offer) according to the need. I explained this before in Sabha
at the General People's Congress on the al-Fatih anniversary and
I am not going to say it again. The recording exists, play it on the
radio and anyone who did not hear it, let him hear it.
Social security, the transfer of services to the fund, we did not
forget this, the (?productivty) and opening of branches for it in
the municipalities, this is [words indistinct].
Oil, support the [word indistinct] projects? What does this mean?
What do they mean by this resolution?
[Unidentified speaker] As regards what is meant by supporting
the Ras Zanuf projects, during the visit carried out by the
secretaries of the people's congresses in Banghazi, it became clear
that the first stage of the project was completed. The Jama-
hiriyah needs the completion of this project in order to cover the
other projects for industrial self-sufficiency. The Ras Zanuf
projects are still delayed in the second and the third stage; they
are the ones which will supply industrial projects with raw
materials such as ethylene and other materials.
[Unidentified speaker] Perhaps he means the second stage, the
completion - Ras Zanuf has other stages, I think the second and
third which have not been completed. The basic people's congress
met in Ras Zanuf and (?appealed) to the people's congress at the
Jamahiriyah level on the basis of supporting and completing this
project up to its third stage, I think, and some of the second.
Several television program studied the projects and yesterday
maybe there was a seminar.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] What do you mean by it? What do you mean by
supporting it?
[Unidentified speaker] What is meant by supporting is.the com-
pletion of the remaining stage - two and three of the projects
- until the raw material with which we will operate the factories
in the Jamahiriyah is made available. The support refers to
material support or support through the implementation of the
current existing project, from income from the existing project,
that is the first stage, can complete the remaining project. [as
heard]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] But doctor.
[Unidentified speaker] Yes?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] [passage indistinct] The oil secretariat should
present a memorandum to the basic people's congresses
explaining what the second stage means which, if I understood
it, the complex in Ra's Zanur now transforms the oil into a
material whose name I do not know. What is its name? Eyt-
hylene. All right, all right. This material is considered a raw
material for other industries. The stage we have now reached is
the middle stage between crude oil and industry. We transformed
the crude oil, which is extracted from the earth into a new
material called eythylene. On this material tens or hundreds of
industries are based; there are 300-500 derivatives. These deriva-
NORTH AFRICA
tives should be written in a memorandum and distributed to the
people's congresses stating that if you complete the second stage
you will establish a group of factories around Ra's Zanuf to use
the raw material produced by Ra's Zanuf in other industries -
in the making of utensils, plastic, cars, [word indistinct], tables,
clothes, pens, all these things are made from this material.
As for general reports, we have nothing to do'with these-gene I ral
reports. The people's congress will read them and discuss them.
Administrative Control
As for enlarging the central apparatus for administrative control
and the audit bureau - I do not know how you will do it. Then
there is the creation of the people's follow-up apparatus. I will
explain this. The creation of a people's follow-up ap
aratus
p
-
now there is planning and follow-up. The people's committee for
planning also carries out the follow-up, like there is an audit
bureau... Excuse me I have forgotten you for the second time. You
raised your hand and...The audit bureau follows up and controls
financial spending, the financial aspect. The administration con-
trol will supervise the progress of administration to see if there
has been a deviation from laws and resolutions of the general
administration. The people's committees for planning, economy
and planning, has a follow-up. Planning means there is follow-up.
It follows the projects. The first project [word indistinct] the
production ratio in this is so much, this is idle, this is not operating
at full capacity, was so and so accomplished, and so and so [word
indistinct], this was completed. In the end it submits a report.. In'
any country, the government (?presents to parliament a report)
which says this is the result of the follow-up. But the people's
committees which are planning now, planning for a project for
instance, or the economy in general, is the one which follows this
up. Consequently there is no assurance that the follow-up is fair.
The one who plans and draws up the planning policy which is .
approved by the people's congresses and he who drafts them or
helps the people's congresses by explaining to them how planning
is done because the committees consist of planning specialists,
they themselves do the follow-up. This is to o-a certain degree
similar to the board of a company which carries out the consulta-
tion and the implementation. The consultant should be one thing
and the company which implements is another matter and the
one who does the follow-up is another - to supervise them. Thus
a new people's apparatus should be created, people's committees
for instance or anything, along the lines of the people's
apparatuses, the audit bureau, the central apparatus for admin-
istrative supervision, the creation of a people's follow-up commit-.
tee, call it what you like. They will follow up planning. One draws
up the plan, another implements it,:and a third who did not take'
part either in the planning or in the implementation should follow,
up, only supervise. Because if the one who drew up the plan is-.the
one who supervises he will make the result correspond to his
planning so that they do not say his planning was wrong. If the
one who implements also supervises he will try to make the
supervision agree with the implementation in order to show that
there was nothing wrong with the implementation. But the
supervisor whould be an independent party:
Things needing explaining are the memoranda of the [words
indistinct] offer in accordance with the need as we have explained
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at a previous time. The unification of the importation sides
(?whose memorandum is before you), the unification of the
importation sides (?whose memoradum is before you), the unifi-
cation of the importation sides in accordance with my explana-
tion now - the decision is for the people's congress. They decide
or do not decide, they reject or do not reject, the idea is this: the
recovery of society's funds from individuals, installations, and
general companies. This does not concern you.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Reviewing the criteria of those elected to the
basic people's congresses and the people's committees: Some
time ago, the people's congresses decided those elected to mem-
bership of a people's committee must be a technician, a specialist,
a university graduate, etc. In my personal view, experience has
taught us that such people perhaps would not be the right choice.
A person who can neither read nor write may be able to render
a service to the people, or to carry out the decision of a people's
congress better than a technocrat, an expert, or someone we think
is educated or a graduate, and who would be a democrat after all.
Q7 ' NORTH AFRICA
no tribe, I cannot find a guarantor. Could you be my guarantor?
Then a non-Libyan arab might come, a non-Libyan arab wanting
to live in Libya might come, but instead of coming and saying: I
am an arab and I come to Libya according to laws, and I want
to be an Arab here, instead of this he says to himself that he might
not be accepted and goes to so and so saying to him: I am from
such a tribe, accept me in your tribe. The tribal chief then would
bring another 100 persons.
The, person engaging in such practices must be deprived of his
freedom. When free, such a tribal chief would constitute a harm
to society. He would constitute a party, a tribe from nothing; he
would be a?guardian for people.
[Unidentified speaker] There is an important point related to the
issue of compensation for Italy's occupation of Libya and the
Libyan arab people's right to file suits to get compensation.
At that time, it was necessary to lay down rules; but this is against
democracy. Any citizen can be a member of a people's commit-
tee, even if he or she is illiterate. If people choose such a person
to be member of the people's committee, well then, he is chosen.
Reviewing the death penalty: We have spoken about it in
Sebha, and those who do not understand the issue could acquaint
themselves with the cassette in the radio station and consider it
an explanatory memorandum. I told you that I personally am
against the death penalty, but at this moment, at this stage, there
are things, there are cases where those involved must be liq-
uidated. Besides, at this stage, we cannot encourage the enemies
of the people, the enemies of the people's power, and petty
adventurers who would become daring because the death penalty
would not be there any more.
Likewise, military laws have their own measures in all countries,
and are not concerned by this subject. For instance, a soldier
fleeing from the battlefield after laying down his weapons must
be immediately executed. Otherwise, anyone would be able to
abandon his weapons and go. Laying down rules regarding those
who return from abroad, this has only one point; how to discuss
it? There is the case of Libyans who were in Libya and then left
for one reason or another, and now they return to Libya. In this
case, we say welcome to them. Another case: A non-Libyan
Arab who wants to live in Libya, to become a Libyan
citizen: We say to him, O.K. welcome. You already have
decided on this. Where is the dispute or the problem then? The
problem is that a Libyan having left Libya and returned looks
for a tribal chief and ask him to testify that he is the son of so
and so, from the family of so and so, whose father went abroad
at the time of the Italians to a certain place, leaving me, a small
boy. Then another one comes saying the same thing, and the
tribal chief makes up a file and comes to the Department of
Justice saying: These people are from my tribe, 100 persons
returning from abroad, and I testify that they belong to my tribe.
But other people may come and say: Ah, so and so is capable
of securing a certificate of nationality from the Department of
Justice. They would go to the same chief and say: Please, l have
[Al-Qadhdhafi] The objective of submitting this at people's con-
gresses is to tell Italy that if it does not compensate Libyans for
the damage inflicted on them as a result of the country being
occupied - and they have not given us a reply regarding all the
Libyans whom they took to Italy - thousands whose fate is
unknown. [sentence as heard] Where are their sons, their sons'
sons, their grandchildren, their granchildren's children [words
indistinct]? Did you burn them, kill them, execute them, sell them
to another country? If they are dead where did you bury them,
where are their graves [word indistinct]? This is a crime [word
indistinct]. Germany is still paying its debts for the crimes
committed by Hitler. The whole world regarded him as a crimi-
nal, it allied itself against Hitler and destroyed his country,
because, they said, he was putting Jews in ovens. Well, there are
thousands of Libyans who were taken by Italy, maybe they were
put in ovens [words indistinct]. We are fighting Italy alone; we
will take our revenge. How can it take thousands of Libyans and
their fate become unknown.
[Words indistinct) we have a dispute over borders since 1900, and
the Suez Canal agreement which [words indistinct] the 1956 war
goes back to 1888. Has not the past gone and ended? [passage
indistinct]. All right, they took thousands of Libyans in this
century. Every Libyan family now - we are now putting Italy
in the dock. Either Italy will do all this in an amicable and
peaceful way - compensate us and give us an answer regarding
the Libyans it took [word indistinct] and the things it stole from
Libya, antiquities and manuscripts - they must return these -
or at this meeting of the people's congresses and after the time
given to Italy, Libyans will act. Everyone will act as they wish
[words indistinct]. We can take an Italian as a captive - that is
that - and we will announce that we have taken one italian in
exchange for a [word indistinct] at least bring a Libyan out.
Where did you bury him or put him [words indistinct]? Hence, if
someone has suffered from Italy he can confiscate Italian prop-
erty- can [word indistinct] Italian property. Let relations
between us be like this; demand revenge and take whatever you
can. If Italy does not want our relations to deteriorate to this
extent, it has to work with us and decide to compensate us and
return what was stolen from Libya. [sentence indistinct]
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cedent. The former German chancellor, Adenauer,
Israelis for Hitler's crimes. The present-day Ital-
iould compensate us for Mussolini's crimes and the
m. .
speaker] This is related to the issue of compensa-
Libyans' right to file suit [words indistinct], and a
must be issued.
11 The Foreign Ministry submits a report on the
Falashas to the occupied territories. All right, how
g 'Umar al-Tayyib, Numayri's deputy, and his
uggled the Falasha. The smuggler number one is
l, Numayri. [passage indistinct] This quick review
must be done in the way we did so that it will be
,eople's congresses. You, who have attended this
ds indistinct]. Most of the people's congresses the
:this discussion and meeting. This concerns [words
speaker] Regarding the basic people's congress, the
more precisely, the secretary of the basic people's
'e responsible for presenting an explanatory memo-
ling any resolution passed by the congress. In view
tinct] during the days of the congresses being held,
.vill be responsible and will not be free. Therefore,
-ult to present any memorandum. In this case we
citizen himself, to the one who makes decisions,
present a memorandum. I do not know whether
;ht to ask him to present a memorandum, and, if
mId his resolution be droped or not. Please clarify.
] From the beginning, when this member raises his
's congress and has an opinion; what is he? [word
nion and issuing a law of where did you get this.
ind explains it to us and you (?discuss). This way
. continue with their work and proceed to pass
I record this member's remarks..
Budget, Planning
] [Word indistinct] the 1986. budget, we have the
ment plan which ended in 1985, 1981-85. What
r this plan? Shall we start another plan or not? I
?r the previous plan a [word indistinct]. It is. not
,Ian in revolutionary terms. Traditionally, it could
n as in any traditional country - this is called a
1 another is a 10-year plan. There is the previous
coming budget, from year to year - and they
However, the revolution rejects this method and
.er it a plan. I gave you an example; it was Stalin
he 5-year plan. He transformed the Soviet Union
Rural country into an industrial one in 5 years.
world began to depend on 5-year plan methods.
d clamoring: 5-year plan, 5-year plan [words
:e then the 5-year plan became a tradition; any
.vas a 5-year plan does not do anything. A 5-year
bilizing specific capabilities: Stalin [words indis-
Union into an industrial country, because it was
cultural country. He mobilized capabilities over
? 40
NORTH AFRICA
5 years and slaughtered millions of people who opposed this plan;
it is said that he slaughtered 5 million - according to [word
indistinct] - people who opposed the 5-year plan in order to
reach this great objective, namely transforming the Soviet Union
into an industrial country.
If it was not for that method .the Soviet Union. would have
remained backward like China and India; like any of those large
countries which cannot face up to America. The Soviet Union is
the only country that can confront America, since because of this
plan it was able to reach an advanced stage in a short time.
Generally, in revolutionary terms, the 5-year or 10-year and
other plans mean something other than known here, something
other than the Libyan 5-year plan of 1981-85. This is not a plan
at all. Five years have passed and every year [words indistinct)
remarks that the Libyan woman's role is not present in a principal
way in this conference. How do we interpret this. [passage
indistinct]. She is sitting at home; she is not sitting here. The
remark is well in place. Restrictions have been removed on the
part of people's democracy and even the laws promulgated under
the revolution and people's authority. Masses are masses and the
state of the masses comprises men and women. But women have
internal shortcomings inherited from the times of their oppres-
sion. Even those who have a right in court, and the law allows
them to go to court, can say that she does not want to go to court
and leaves herself at a man's mercy.
I was talking about. wealth [words indistinct] during 1986, 1987
and 1988 until 1990, for example, for 1 year, 2 years, 5 years,
and for any number of years. I am talking about what we need;
what Libya needs. I am talking about Libyans. I am talking about
myself. Firstly, the 1986 budget. [passage indistinct]. Each sector
has estimated its 1986 budget, and it was 1.7 billion dinars. That
means they need 1.7 billion dinars to implement the development
projects which these committees want. [passage indistinct]
If we prepare one year's budget we would need 1.7 billion, and if
we want to prepare a 2-year plan, 1986-88, and we multiply the
1.7 billion by two we get about 3.5 billion; that is 3.5 billion dinars
that would be needed for 2 years. If we want to prepare a 5-year
plan, we. multiply it by five - we would need 8.5 billion dinars.
(?I mean) this year you may have 1.7 billion in your hands. How
would you divide it up? [words indistinct] health, poultry, [word
indistinct] palm, industry, health [as heard], schools;, anything
that is needed [words indistinct]. The 1.7 billion will be divided
among them in 1986.
On the other hand, we collect 3.5 billion dinars and divide it over
2 years [words indistinct]; but let us say that in 2 years, 1986-87,
there are 3.5 billion dinars. Or let us say we prepare a 5-year
plan. We spend 8.5 billion dinars, that means we would have' 8.5
billion dinars for 5-years [words indistinct] and we spend it over
5,years. What do we do with this 8.5 billion? [passage indistinct]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Another 5-year plan: When we say that in 5
years it will turn into an industrial state, it means that most of
the money we make in 5 years and that totals 80 billion dinars
we must transfer for industry. this is an industrial plan. We take
5,000, 6,000, or 7,000 and transfer it to industry, or as you said,
we turn into an agricultural state. Five years and Libya would
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V. 24 Dec 85
Q 9 NORTH AFRICA
become a world farm.
When we talk about available revenues we, in fact, mean the
price of the oil and nothing else. What you must realize is that
you must know that you have nothing but oil, and so far you have
not realized that you have nothing but oil. The day when the price
of oil is reduced your money is reduced as well as your revenues;
from all Libya's revenues to everyone's revenue. When the oil is
not sold at all, all Libya's revenue is cut off; even your wages are
cut off, because your wages now come from oil and the wages of
Libya as a state also come from oil. The task before you is to turn
oil into another inexhaustible material. You do not seem to
understand this. How many years have I been screaming and
telling you that you have nothing but oil? I beg you to turn oil
into substitutes, make substitutes for oil. Sell the oil now and
(build?) industry; sell the oil now and run the agriculture.
You have estimated the budget of 1986 between 1.7. billion. [as
heard] Does it really mean that all these secretariats might need
1.7 billion [word indistinct] 1986, next year? But the assessments
say that in 1986 we will get 1,3 billion i.e., 400 short. It is
probable that 1987 will attain the same figure, 1.3 billion and the
year after that, and it is possible for a number of years that the
amount we could allocate for the transformation is approxi-
mately 1,300 [as heard]. Therefore the revenues in 1986 could be
1.3 billion. if we add them for 2 years it will be 2.6 billion; for 5
years 5 times is 6.5 billion. in other words, what will be achieved
in fact, is that you will have 1986 in your own hands, money in
your own hands, 1.3 billion dinars. If you add to it the sum of the
year after it will be 2.6 billion. You could run a plan for two years
with 2,600 which you expect to be in your hand. What can you
run for 2,600? you will say 2,000 will be turned to industry and
the 600 for agriculture, or vice-versa, or no industry and no
agriculture; with one we buy bananas and the other we buy
clothes or foodstuff and so forth.
Or you may say we shall make a 5-year plan with 6.5 billion
dinars. In 5 years we will have 6.5 billion, dinars. What are we
going to do with it? This is clear. It means that in 5 years you
could have 6 billion. It could possibly be 7 billion. Because the
assessments make the average figure in expectation of any emer-
gency with regard to the oil crisis, it might become cheaper, or
could not be bought, or a war breaks out. Anything of this sort
might occurr: a fire might break out in the oil fields in some
wells that would hinder [production], the weather might change,
hurricanes might hinder exports. It is therefore possible for you
to have in your hand 7 billion dinars within 5 years. You can draw
up a 5-year plan with that money, 7 billion dinars. Henceforth,
we decided what to do with this money: come on, decide on a
5-year plan. You will say 5 billion for the industry, and 2 billion
for agriculture; or 2 billion only for industry and 5 billion for
agriculture, provided you do not go over this figure.
With this available scope, you will say by God, this does not suit
us; 1.3 billion does not suit us for 1986 because what we needis
at least 1.7 billion. All right, where will you get the rest from?
Or you may say that in 2 years, we will not have 2.6 billion, we
must have 3 or 4 billion - a 2-year plan. Or you may say that
for a period of 5 years we must have 10 billion dinars and not 6
or 7 billion; we must arrange for a further 3 billion dinars.
So much for the number one operation. As for number two, let
us assume that we employ the Libyans who do not earn wages;
the Libyans who really do not earn wages are the students. If we
assume that we give the students a salary, but unlike a salary by
foreign companies, say the student takes a salary of 50 dinars
[words indistinct] 80 dinars, if the student is employed for 50, 60,
70, or 80 dinars per month and the students carry out the
transformation plan for 1986 or 1986-87; or during the 5 years,
the amount for 1986 will be 1,174 billion and for 2 years it will
2,384, 5 years 5.87 billion. [words indistinct). Instead of spending
1,300 if we employ the students, instead of spending 1.7 billion
in 1986, we will spend less, 1.174 billion. What does it mean?
Eh? If we employ the students for 2 years, instead of spending
6.5 billion dinars we will spent 2.384 billion, and over 5 years
5.87 billion. These are the choices we have.
A choice that the Libyans carry out the implementation of the
projects by the Libyans who earn their salaries, it is they who
implement the transformation budget for 1986, or the 2-year
plan or the 5-year plan. In the first year we spend 600 million
and in 2 years this figure is doubled, and over 5 years you multiply
it by five. If we employ the Libyans who do not receive salaries
and give them a salary less than that of the salaries of the
companies and foreign manpower, we will not save 600 million
in the first year, but less than that of course; i.e. one-third of this
amount. It is possible to save 400 million instead of 600 million.
Thus in 2 years, we will save 800 million, in 5 years, five times
four.
You consume 66,000 metric tonnes of olive oil a year, and you
produce 3,000 metric tons. You import 63,000 metric tons. From
where? From Tunisia. When our Tunisian brothers treated us
shabbily, we decided to punish the Tunisian Government. I
personally said: We are not buying olive oil from Tunisia.
Where then are we going to buy it they said? From Ital
S
i
y,
pa
n,
or from I do not know where. It is not feasible to punish an Arab
state and then benefit the Spanish state, Spain which is going to
recognize the Israelis soon, or the Italians with whom we have an
account to settle. I said no to depriving Tunisia and...but it would
have been a good thing if only the prices of olive oil were
benefitting the Tunisian people; in fact, it goes to exploiters and
contractors. Now can I benefit Spain and Italy. We can do
without olive oil, we said, but you shouted: we want olive oil,
olive oil. On the one hand you insult Tunisia and you were
prepared for war, and - well, when I speak about Tunisia I am
not speaking about all Tunisia, I speak about the Tunisian
Government - and on the other hand you say: we want olive
oil. We have an account to settle with Italy and then you
say: Where is olive oil. Well, oil is in Italy. About Spain you
say: How are they going to recognize the enemy? They are this
and that; and then you ask for oil. Oil is in Spain. You fight them
with words and you give them gold! Here there is no need to be
an economic specialist; these are obvious things that everyone
knows.
Imports
I mean, if you are going to cut the consumption of these things,
then decide it. If you cut imports by half you would save 500
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W
V. 24 Dec 85
a
million [Libyan dinars] for 1986, and about l billion in 2 years,
that is 1986-1987. You would save more than 2 billion over the
coming 5 years. ..
The money saved can go to Libyans in the form of loans, and
everyone would do as he likes: build a farm, or a cistern, or
marry five or even six wives, or build a two-storey house. You
would be free. The fact is that no one is being bound by the
Islamic Shari'a, and even those who. are calling for the rule of
Shari'a are not implementing it. Shari'a is not easy, but because
the Shari'a does not prohobit marrying several wives, it is all right
then; four, five, ten. Because you want the implementation of
tradition set by the prophet, well, .the prophet married 11.
Preachers in mosques speak about the Sunna of the prophet; all
right then, let it be the tradition set by the prophet. But the
prophet fought the infidels, and you are giving them gold. We
have given consideration only to the other side of the Sunna, the
sweet side of it.
Once again I say that the imports budget for 1986 needs l billion
dinars. It will need 2 billion for the next 2 years, and 4.5 billion
for the next 5 years. You can decide the imports budget yourself.
What is the imports budget? It means foodstuff, clothes, and
other items we buy from abroad. Do without half of the imports
and you will save 500 million for next year, 1 billion over 2 years,
and 2 billion over the next 5 years.
The next point is the armed people. Let us suppose that Libya
needs 100,000 persons under arms at one time and suppose we
have I million Libyans trained in the use of arms. This would
make 5 groups each consisting of 100,000 persons. [as heard] If
each group stays under arms, then the first 100,000 go and
another 100,000 replace them. This means that in a year each of
us would spend 2 and 1/2 months under arms. Sorry. If we are
500,000 trained people and want 100,000 under arms, then we
would have 5 groups comprising 100,000 each. If each group
spends 2 and 1/2 months it would make one year; therefore, in a
year each 100,000 carry arms for 2 and 1/2 months, and they
then leave and are replaced by another 100,000, in shifts under
arms. This would go on year in year out, and every year each of
us would spend 2 and 1/2 months under arms.
This naturally supposes training for everybody, every year, so as
not to forget the use of weapons. Let us now suppose that we reach
1 million armed and trained persons; then instead of 2 and 1/2
months, the period under arms becomes I month. This means
that one spends only I month under arms a year. As the pop-
ulation grows and the number of persons trained increases the
period under arms gets shorter. While in other states people
spend 2. years, .15 months, or 3 years under conscription, with
everyone serving 2 or 3 years, with the armed people we would
spend only I month under arms a year. But let us suppose 2
months. We want things to be clear. We are now waiting for the
results of the training program which is now under way. No one
can say: I work in the morning then let me undergo training in
the morning. This would be treason. It would be like running
away from work, as if one would be working for Italy, for
instance. But Libyans would be working for themselves.
M
Q10 ]
We are supposed to go for weapons trainin
day if we are to be able to confront Amerii
these idiots. All this is to [word indistinct
idea of an armed people. First, the general ?
continue like a clock, and every Libyan m
he has weapons training and he must not r(
he be called over the radio, punished, pt
anything. If you have a legitimate excuse
do not have a legitimate excuse you must g(
fixed for you on a monthly or weekly basis,
if you are a mosque goer, or like you go
you go the market, you must go to the plac
the armed people will emerge. From now
can say let us have 50,000 men or 100,000
2 months. They do their work responsibly
come.
We can say we want 50,000 men under am
the period under arms gets shorter. The 50
for 1 month or 1 and 1/2 months, then
another 50,000 and so forth. So one gets
years. This is the easiest thing. Better the
the slavery that used to be. A 2-year servi
I must declare that the Arab states have
great artificial river [project to bring wa
oases] despite all the repeated promises -
have the means: Saudi Arabia, Kuwai
declare that these states have failed to c
artificial river, despite the fact that th
billions in Jewish-owned banks in America
buted even with a I billion loan [currenc
great artificial river, a loan that would be
Libyan people from the production of the
These are not states [words indistinct]; tht
iced in banks in America and Europe bene
enemies of the Arab nations: America(
Western states. And we have frequently s
the People's Congresses sent them a people
were promises, and soon, but now we are o
have failed to contribute to the great artif.
Traveling abroad: On every journey yo
dinars as a result of visits abroad by Lib
takeout I hundred million. If you wanted t
100 million for 1986 and this is added tc
years 200 million, in 5 years 500 million,
Some group brought me information tell
Israeli goes abroad on vacation- he pays $:
him, if you go abroad give us $500 and pt
return for your going abroad because this
him, and you do not go out of the promise(
pays $500, he gives it to the treasury and
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Q11 NORTH AFRICA
out 100 million every year; you can run a factory with this sum
or agriculture [words indistinct].
Libyans go abroad. Why'do they go abroad? What is the secret
that makes you go abroad? They say you (?buy) gold [words
indistinct]. The money you spend abroad and with which you buy
gold from abroad is twice as much; the gold is not necessary; the
100 million is very worthwhile for you, the amount you take out
[words indistinct] invested in Ghana, it has goldmines and you
have a mineral company, its capital is $(?600 million).
How do you take out 10 million dinars every month and say we
are saving and we are carrying out our duty? Is this the duty and
is this the bread and butter and the general mobilization? Imag-
ine with 10 million dinars you can run something every month, a
factory every month, or a farm every month. I mentioned to you
very important factories for 2 or 3 millions per year.
You spend 10 million dinars abroad every month and you do not
spend it in Libya. How can the people shoulder their responsibil-
ity? Well?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] As I told you, the question of tourism is
extremely important. If we want to build our national economy
and our strong economic power, then we should not spend 10
million [dinars] monthly abroad at all. If there are things you
need to get from abroad, then find a way to get them from abroad,
such as asking the Libyan people's bureaus abroad to bring you
the things you need.
Concentrate on internal tourism. You do not know Libya. There
are things in Libya to see which excel anything in Europe a
thousand times. It has mountains, deserts, plains and all the
scenery you want. If you want to meet with foreigners, ask them
to come here. Bring them to see their [word indistinct] [Al-
Qadhdhafi says laughingly]. Bring them here and they will come
personally.[as heard]
I f you want anything, the people's bureaus can bring them. Then
Libya has sufficient natural features. If you want to meet with
the foreigners, let them come here and you permit them to come
here and that is all. But it is wrong to take 100 million dinars per
year abroad. This would undermine the economy. To take 10
million dinars per month out is something that cannot be accept-
able at all.
[AI-Qadhdhafi apparently addresses somebody] You want to ask
a question? But I have not finished talking yet.
[Unidentified speaker] What makes our kinsmen and loved ones
rush to travel is connected with the importation committee's
activities. Things which can be bought from Bulgaria or Turkey
for 3 or 4 dinars, are sold here in Libya for 60 dinars or 70 dinars.
What is the reason for the high cost of living? If this is due to
customs duty, it should not be that high.
'Al-Qadhdhafi] Let us hear what the secretary of the General
People's Committee for economy has to say about this? Is this
true? Please explain this matter to us.
Secretary for the economy] This is not true at all. [commotion in
background]
[Same unidentified speaker] Brother commander. Let me give
you an example. Take fur. Those who go to Morocco buy it for
about 9 dinars and 12 dinars. But it is sold here for 70 dinars.
[commotion in background] It is there in our markets and the
price tags are'on them and you can set them.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Let us hear what the secretary of. the General
People's Committee for Economy and Light Industries has to say.
Let him reply and then you have your turn to talk.
[Secretary for the economy] The products and their qualities are
well-known. They are classed into grades. When we buy, we buy
grade I goods according to special specifications. We buy well-
known goods. What we buy we buy from well-known and recog-
nized companies according to special specifications and
everything they export is exported according to these
specifications. Those who go to folk markets the goods they find
there are rejects, they have been rejected by the companies
because they cannot be exported: These things you see in a folk
market in Morocco are rejects which the manufacturing compan-
ies refuse to export. [commotion in background]
[Same unidentified speaker] This is unreasonable.
[Al-Qadhdhafi addressing the secretary for the economy] If you
buy a suit from abroad, for how much do you sell it to the people?
Let him answer.
{
[Secretary for the economy] If we buy it for 3 dinars, we sell it
for 4 and 1 /2 dinars or for 5 dinars.
[Same unidentified speaker] It is not correct. [commotion in the
background] Take another example. Take Seiko watches.
Abroad they are sold for 10 dinars a watch, and sometimes for 6
dinars. But here they are sold for 40 dinars and 45 dinars.
[Secretary for the economy] We have nothing at all that is sold
for 40 dinars. .
[Same unidentified speaker] They.they are sold for 35 dinars.
[Secretary for the economy] If the issue concerns watches and.
such things, then this is a different matter.
[Same unidentified speaker] This proves a lack of control by the
Economy Secretariat over the markets and shops:
[Al-Qadhdhafi] I wish to make a general remark. When things
come from abroad say costing 5 dinars, and are brought to the
market where it is sold for 7 dinars, the 2 dinars are customs
duties. It does not matter which country they are brought from,
even from Ceylon. The 2 dinars go to the state's treasury. It is
the citizen's contribution. to the general budget in an indirect
manner. This is the philospliy behind customs and taxes.
When the government is feudalist and opposed to the masses, it
spends these taxes and duties on the police, prisons, suppression
and on tightening the government's grip on citizens. Hence
frequently, citizens try to dodge these taxes and duties saying,
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? ?
why should I give them to the government's treasury to increase
the number of police. But when the treasury belongs to the
Libyan people and you pay 2 dinars extra, you must rest assured
that this returns to you in the commodities budget, by which rice
and grains and clothes are bought or factories are run or guns are
bought. This is a general remark which you must understand.
Any increased taxes or duties in Libya are actually used to
increase your budget, the commodities budget that is before you,
the school budget, the hospital budget. They come back to you.
This is a matter we must accept without argument or controversy.
The other remark I wish to make, is that the Libyan people can
decide that such commodities be sold at cost price. Say one
commodity is bought from Europe for 5 dinars. The cost of
transport ans storage are then calculated. Say this cost I dinar.
Then it should be sold for 6 dinars. The Libyan people can do this.
But there is a revenue which consists of such differences in price.
It consists of such taxes and duties and customs.
[Al-Qadhdhafi addresses the secretary for the economy] How
much annually do we get in customs and taxes?
[Secretary for the economy] [Passage indistinct]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] It should be sufficient to meet salaries, which
should not be met from the oil. Salaries should be met from what
we all pay in taxes and customs duties. All these resources are
called sovereignty revenue. The sovereignty revenue should be
enough to meet salaries. We must not seek to pay for salaries
from the oil revenue. The revenue from oil should be used only
for development and for the reserve.
How much are the sovereignty revenues? [words indistinct] Sal-
aries should not be paid out from oil [income]. Rather, salaries
should be paid out from what we all pay in the form of customs,
the goods we make and charges [words indistinct]. When we add
all these things together it gives us what is called sovereignty
revenues. These revenues should cover the payment of salaries.
We should not pay salaries out of oil [income]. Oil should be for
development and reserves only.
We now probably spend I billion dinars on salaries, out of which
400 [million] are from sovereignty revenues, which are taxes,
customs, and charges. While the 600 million shortage you should
take from oil [as heard]. If you want, this thing costs 5 and it sells
for 5 for instance; these 400 millions you should understand that
there is [word indistinct] [sentence as heard].
Matter, as scientists say, cannot be created out of nothing.
Nothing wastes; it evaporates into space, then it condenses again;
if it burns it creates energy, energy once again turns to gases,
solid, liquid matter, or whatever. However, it is not wasted.
[words indistinct] The 400 million I have just mentioned,
achieved from these, can become only 200 or 300 million.
Q 12 NORTH AFRICA
[Indistinct intervention from the floor]
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Let one person alone answer me. When, no, not
you (?Ali al-Mukhtar) you should not speak. When we deduct
the 400 million which are (?collected) every year from the
sovereignty revenue [words indistinct]. All right, answer me.
[Indistinct words from the floor]
[Unidentified speaker] [Words indistinct] the wrongdoing is by
the importer. He goes abroad and imports the goods at any price
they tell him and brings them here [words indistinct]. The mid-
dlemen involved, in this article, dear leader, we said the unifica-
tion of the importation sides. [sentence as received] The
unification of the sides regarding the import of goods is indeed a
good idea which will be implemented, God willing. Because any
company which goes abroad ...[speaker changes thought] It
enters any state and takes it in (?cars), hotels, and I don't know
what. He accepts any price they offer and he purchases the goods.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Libya is supposed to be the cheapest country in
the world because there is no exploitation. Exploitation is what
[words indistinct]. When a merchant sells in the market, we say
this pair of glasses costs this paper. We go and increase the
employees [words indistinct]. When we come to buy the glasses
from the merchant the next day, we give him a paper as is the
custom. He says to me: No, the price of the glasses now equals .
two papers. It is as though the increase you gave the employees
forced you to increase it to the merchant who does not produce
anything. He sits in his place and increases the price of goods.
Any country which has private trade has collapsed, especially in
this economic crisis, because the merchants want to make a profit
and people are in need. They increase prices, the state increases
wages, prices are increased, and bankruptcy then takes place and
the state falls [words indistinct].
Had there been private trade, you would have seen what state
Libya would have been in. And had there been contractors,
commission agents, contract clerks, you would have left the
country a long time ago which would have been bankrupt. You
would have gone because the socialist measures implemented in.
Libya were the ones which prevented this. Egypt today is in the
worst condition because there has been a retreat to a great extent
from socialist measures implemented in the days of Jamal `Abd
al-Nasir. Egypt has never faced such a crisis.
[Unidentified speaker] Prices, indeed, brother leader. We are
neither attacking nor blaming the people's committee for the
economy. There is nothing between us and it. But the issue
indeed, brother leader, is that the prices are frightfully high in
relation to their original price.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Who puts up the prices?
[Indistinct interventions from the floor].
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Correct. Who can understand when I million
speak simultaneously?
[Speaker] I am certain that there is a force [words indistinct]
which is violating the socialist resolutions [words indistinct].
[Al-Qadhdhafi] First, who puts up the prices of imported goods?
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[Speaker] First the factories. Fuel, fuel, brother leader...
[Al-Qadhdhafi interrupting] I am asking you: Who is
increasing prices?
[Speaker] One moment. This is the start, brother leader...
[Al-Qadhdhafi interrupting] Who puts them up?
[Speaker] The starting point, fuel...
[AI-Qadhdhafi interrupting] Who puts them up? Which side is
increasing the price? We want to know it and make it account
for this.
[Speaker] (?The committee) for the economy.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] The economy?
[Speaker] The economy.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Well.
[Speaker] And the committees formed [words indistinct].
[Al-Qadhdhafi] This increased cost, where does it go?
[Speaker] It comes at the expense of the citizen, dear leader.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Tell me, where does it go?
[Speaker] In the end, dear leader [words indistinct] but I am
unable to buy it. (?Why for instance, do'we buy it in Bulgaria
and find written on it made in Romania?)
[AI-Qadhdhafi] This is another matter [words indistinct] This is
a third question. First, who puts up the price?
[Speaker] The economy, brother leader.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] You said the economy.
[Speaker] Yes.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] You said the economy.
[Speaker] Yes.
[AI-Qadhdhafi] Well, then we said where does the increased cost
go? We found it goes to the Libyan people, to the treasury of the
Libyan people (uproar from the floor). Where, then, does it go?
[Speaker] One moment, one moment, brother leader. I will
answer you. Brother leader, in your guidance to the General
People's Congress, and at this hall, sorry in Sabha, you pointed
out [speaker changes thought], you held a pen in your hand and
asked how did this committee hear of this pen factory and went
and signed a contract with it. Now the delegation formed to sign
agreements and purchasing contracts face more than one ques-
tion and they are indeed the beneficiaries and probably have
acounts abroad.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Why do you not hold them accountable?
[Speaker] They will be made to account [words indistinct].
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Generally, you can decide whatever is necessary.
The popular committees are obliged to implement the decisions.
Anyone who does not you bring him to account and make him
pay whether customs or excise duty, or taxes or (?ban) him from
importing anything from abroad. [sentence as heard] Unfortu-
nately, we are still working for colonialism. We are still (?newly
developed), billions (?paid) to West German British, Italian, and
American companies which are sometimes subsidiaries of Israeli
quarters or owned by Israelis. [Words indistinct] Western Eur-
ope, and America. The companies with whom contracts are
signed primarily belong to this colonialist world which is hostile
to us. Most tourism comes from these countries. Even a spare
which you buy is imported from a colonialist state.
Our relations must be reexamined with the Western states which
are hostile to us particularly FRG, Britain, and America who
give the Israelis full support and which are hostile to the Arab
nation in general and the Libyan Arab people in particular and
conspire against us. We must deprive and punish them eco-
nomically.
You can actually increase your salaries because the salaries that
used to be paid to the aliens now can be paid to you provided you
work. But, most of the Libyan work force is out of work now
[words indistinct]. If this shirt is worth 5 dinar, we sell it to you
for 10. Why do we take 5 more from you? It is to pay the alien
you want to be here to serve you. If you want to be served by an
alien, you should pay 10 dinars for a shirt which is worth 5. This
is correct. It is because you want to sleep. At least you should
spend your money if you, yourself, do not work. Pay money, and
charge double customs duty so that you can pay the shepherds
because you are no longer herding sheep. [passage indistinct]
Your doctors and nurses come from abroad, as do cars and
clothes. You want to holiday abroad. All this and you do not want
us to increase the costs. You should at least cover your expenses.
The Libyan compatriot costs the state a lot unlike any other
country. He travels aborad and brings people from aborad to
serve him, and everything he utilizes comes from aborad. In
return for all this you should pay for it. The shirt that costs 5
dinars we will sell to you for 20. The difference of 15 goes to cover
these costs.
The other thing is this. You have a billion dinars stacked at home.
Put this money in' the bank. The bank belongs to you.
I would like to say a final point on foreign affairs now that we
have concluded this matter and summarized it in this manner.
The goods balance sheet, the budget, and the plan, we conduct
the debate on this basis. Let the people make its view on it known.
This is a decisive stage. You will notice this from your debates.
[passage indistinct]
You cannot finalize the problem in your favor. You either follow
a positive or negative path. If you decide that you must import
everything from abroad, or if you say let us (? offset) it with oil,
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I will tell you and I would like you to understand that you have
nothing except oil to sell. The money derived from it should be
used in purchasing something that takes its place the day people
stop buying oil. This is what I want you to understand.
Foreign Affairs
With regard to foreign affairs, there is the question about boy-
cotting the states hostile to us. This question must be reexamined
and we should boycott them. We should not deal with them and
not let them benefit from us. Their companies should all be
entered on the blacklist.
We said that the rich Arab states have not regrettably partici-
pated in the great man made river: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,
UAE. [sentence as heard]
Libyan media interferes in the domestic affairs of the Arab
states. I see this is not our duty. It will be quite sufficient for us
to express joy over the new theory and propagate unity and
liberation and concentrate on the things we have.
The truth is that I am not with the media which says that there
is this and there is that in the Egyptian black market. If the
Egyptian citizen feels the burden of this terrible thing - the
black market, he himself must be cognizant of it. He himself, can
initiate the revolution. We must not speak on his behalf. Other-
wise, it means that peopel are stupid and we are trying to teach
them.
The bread demonstration in Tunis. No, the Tunisian people
themselves were feeling the hunger and they felt they needed
bread. So they staged an uprising; and they fired on them with
bullets. This is how it was. We do not need to tell them anything.
Egypt
Our stand should be pan-Arab. Our disagreement with Egypt is
not because the watermelon is being sold in the black market in
Egypt. This is something that concerns the Egyptian people
themselves. We are quarreling with it because it recognized
Israel. We are not quarrelling with it on account that the borders
between us is crooked. There is no border problem between Egypt
and ourselves. There is a serious, pan-Arab issue between Egypt
and ourselves. It recognized our enemy and enabled him to
transgress against us and destroy us in the northern front. He will
destroy and crush Egypt at a later time and then will come to
Libya and the rest of the Arab countries. Thus, he builds a
Zionist empire upon the ruins of the Arab homeland. Egypt is
selling 40 million barrels of oil to the Israeli enemy daily. It has
sent him aviation fuel which is used in striking the Lebanese,
Palestinians, and Syrians. It also sells him steel which he turns
into bombs and guns. It buys the surplus goods like eggs and (?
what have you) from him.
This is strength for the enemy. No Arab must, even if we have
to fight him, strengthen and recognize the enemy because it
constitutes a danger to us. He and the enemy can go to hell. We
are against Yasir 'Arafat when he recognizes Israel. Why?
Because it constitutes a danger to us. If he recognizes it, Israel
will continue to be hostile to the rest of us who have not reeog-
Q 14 NORTH AFRICA
nized it. It will strike us and even impose recognition upon us.
Someone will say what difference does it make to you if 'Arafat
recognizes or does not recognize [Israel]'Arafat's recognition will
be at the expense of our future. Recognition of Israel by King
Husayn also will be at our future's expense.
[Al-Qadhdhafi] If King Husayn, or Syria and the enemy become
(?friends), it will mean the end of this issue and Israel will (?turn)
on Syria and destroy Syria tomorrow. Therefore, Syria has the
right to intervene so that Husayn will not recognize Israel. It also
is our right to intervene in this, because if Syria is destroyed, then
they [Israel] will destroy us. [Words indistinct] The force that
faces Syria - if Syria was finished - would turn on you and
destroy you. These things are foregone conclusions.
We do not have a border problem with Egypt, and the quarrel
with that country is not because the regime there is an exploiter
or that there is a lack of democrcy there. The entire world lives
without democracy. [Words indistinct] There is a pan-Arab
quarrel between Egypt and ourselves. The domestic problem has
nothing to do with us.
Take Morocco for instance. Do we agree with it on everything
inside their country or our country? No, not at all. There are
matters which are completely paradoxical. But this concerns the
Moroccans. And if the Moroccans feel them they feel them, and
if they want to resist them, it is up to them to resist them. If they
like them then let them like them. The same applies to the
Libyans. But as long as he builds an Arab unity with me, that is
it, there is (?an accord).
We do not have a problem about who rules and who (?directs) in
Tunisia and what it has and what it does not have. This concerns
the Tunisians. When they staged the bread demonstration you
did not tell them to demonstrate. They were starving so they
staged the demonstration. What we have with them is a pan-Arab
stand. We have the Djerba declaration with them. Unity should
be fulfilled. If it is not realized we will continue with the struggle
for the sake of realizing unity, but not in the method which (?we
are following now). [words indistinct] There is a great deal of talk
saying that Husni Mubarak said that he would be prepared to
receive Al-Qadhdhafi in Cairo. The Egyptian press, the Gulf
press and the reactionary press have clamored about this. But by
God, is this the proof of good intention! He boycotted us and we
boycotted him. Why did we boycott him? Because he [Mubarak]
recognized the enemy [Israel].
There are no problems between Libya and Egypt. It is a pan-Arab
problem.
In reply to all this, we say firstly that it is we who have boycotted
Egypt. Then You [Mubarak] have no right to say come to me and
I am prepared to meet with you. Since you recognize the enemy
and you [words indistinct] how can we not boycott him who
recognizes the enemy?
He wishes to recognizer the enemy, and the Arabs come and sit
with him and visit him and so he wins. For he would then feel
that he has recognized the enemy and yet the arabs refrained
from boycotting him. But on the contrary, the Arabs have
boycotted him because he recognized the enemy.
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NORTH AFRICA
Then this matter is totally annulled. It has no legs to stand on.
To say I [Mubarak]am prepared to meet with Al-Qadhdhafi even
in Cairo, there is no quarrel between me [Mubarak] and him. We
in fact did Husni Mubarak a personal favor when he was in the
Egyptian Air Force. He knows how he came to my office when
he was an officer and how we supplied him with missiles, bombs,
and Mirage planes and how we supplied him with arms. He
knows all this., There is no problem between us and him. On the
contrary, he recognizes our favor and our stand by him at the
decisive moments.
Those responsible for the navy know where they got the boats
from used in crossing the canal. He knows also the mobile [word
indistinct] came from where? Those in the land forces also
know: The Libyan artillary which [word indistinct] after the
Israelis crossed the entire Suez Canal struck camp between Cairo
and the canal.
The Egyptian military can say nothing against us. For they know
that we have done them a favor and that we have performed our
duty. Whether Sadat denied this or not does not matter, for Sadat
had no loyalty. He was a cursed person and is buried. Whether
he denied it or not is not important. He was a hypocrite and a
bastard. He was originally with'Abd al-Nasir then joined Amer-
ica and the Jews. This proves that he was a hypocrite and
consequently his testimony was not valid. He had no conscience.
There is no problem between me and Husni Mubarak. There is
no problem between Libya and Egypt. The problem is between
the entire Arab nation and the Egyptian regime which has
recognized Israel and provided it with all the means of power.
I declare now that I am prepared to meet with Husni Mubarak
in Egypt-or at the borders or at any place, but on condition that
we discuss how can Egypt extricate itself from stable David.
[words indistinct party covered by applause]
He says we should meet without conditions. By God, this is the
sort of meeting that should be 100 percent conditional. If such a
meeting is to have no conditions, then there would be no con-
ditions in the world and nothing remains conditional. This is the
sort of meeting that should be conditional.
Our-meeting.with him is not like his meeting with [King] Husayn
at reagans place or his meeting with [Sultan] Qabus who is at the
donkey stable, or his meeting with the fascist Saddam Husayn.
These meet with him because they are all agents and so they rally
around each other. But when I meet with him, I do so to discuss
with him a pan-Arab issue; how to extricate himself from the
impasse he is in, and to explain to me the reasons that made him
stay until now in stable David; to tell me what he wants Libya to
place at his disposal so that he could leave stable David and what
he wants me to do regarding the Arab nation so that he could
leave stable David; and to tell me what Egypt's capability is of
leaving stable David and what are reasons that prevent it from
leaving stable David.
When he explains all this, then we can discuss matters with him
and I would proceed with this matter in a manner that would
bring honor to nee and to all the revolutionary forces: I would
be walking in egypt but not in the way Husayn walks or 'Arafat
I would be discussing an issue with him. I would be going (to
Egypt?) For this reason. After that, we would declare, even if we
were to differ, that we discussed matters with him but he was
determined to continue with the enemy and that I explained and
argued with him but it was no use at all and so I returned. if he
is convinced, and he may become convinced and may say -
between me and you, Egypt is in need of this and that, we are
afraid that the Israelis might reoccupy sinai, that the Israelis
might occupy the canal or occupy Egypt or do this or do that, and
I have no power [to face up to them] and I have a plan to get rid
of them within such a period. Thus we may reach agreement
among us.
But to say that the meeting should be unconditional, I do not
agree. My meeting should be conditional. Once it is agreed that
the meeting is conditional, I would go even to Cairo. For then I
would be going to have discussions with that country and with
that man and to talk with the Egyptian people, with his assembly
and his government on how they could depart from stable David
and I would tell them my views in the name of the revolutionary
force of the Arab nation and in the name of the Arab masses in
this matter and on Egypt's stance.
When Egypt recognized the enemy and joined stable David,
catastrophe befell the Arab nation. For the enemy then became
arrogant enough to seek the destruction of the Palestine resis-
tance and America also became arrogant, seeking to pit one Arab
against another. Egypt's recognition of the enemy was a catas-
trophe that excels all catastrophes. Why? Because that was not
a peace treaty but a treaty of war: Peace in Sinai and war
against Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians.
But when the war on the northern front ends, the war will return
again to Sinai and to Egypt and to Libya and to the remaining
Arab countries. It is definite that the stable David process was
in the interest of the enemy. It is not a peace process and it is not
good for Egypt, because the enemy will try to end the northern
front and then return to the southern front. This is a matter which
I can discuss openly and say to all Egyptians.
Husni Mubarak had no good intentions by saying he was pre-
pared to meet with me. Even Sadat was prepared to meet with
the Arabs - to recognize [Israel] and then meet with them.
This is a message which we respect [as heard] a message from
someone. But let us return to the... [sentence not completed]
[words indistinct] on the agenda:
But listen. You are Libyans. But you are impotent even before
the People's Committee for Economy. You have been com-
plaining that it has increased the taxes and customs duties on us.
How then can you face up to some one like Sadat who might rise,
when you are unable to force the Committee for Economy to
impose the prices you decide upon; nor are you able to fix these
prices.
Then, seeking Mu'ammar's succor is no longer possible. For I
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have always told you that when the masses applaud, I feel as if
they are beating me on my head. I do not even like to see my
picture published. As of now, I beg those responsible for the
media, not to publish my picture any more either in a paper or in
any other means of information. From no on publish only the
picture of the people.
In short, there is nothing I want from you. My colleagues and I
have performed an important historical task - which was to
break the shackles and our sole mission is to see that you exercise
your freedom. I would intervene only when I see someone seeking
to serve himself and thus reimposing the shackles on the Libyan
people. I goad you on breaking the shackles. But if you were to
weaken and succumb, then I would intervene and break them.
The important thing is that we do not accept domination neither
of the workers, of the peasants or of the students. Indeed, the
teachers must be seperated from the students. The universities
must be under the full control of the students through the
creation of committees and congresses. Thus there would be no
hegemony over students. I am against domination.
If a big tribe tries to dominate a small tribe, I am prepared to
give arms to the small tribe to fight until it achieves an equal
footing with the big tribe.
Domination is forbidden. We are fighting American domination
over us at the UN Security Council and at the United Nations
and its domination over us in the world. We fight all the forces
that seek to impose hegemonyover us. Zionism too seeks to
impose hegemony on us. We even fight man's domination of
women, for men and women were created equal. Either man and
woman agree and live together on equal basis and in dignity, or
they should seperate. -
But for a man to divorce his wife at any time he likes, or to marry
at any time he likes, get angry at any time he likes and show
satisfaction at any time he wants, is not correct. Women are not
given the right to divorce at any time they want, or to marry at
any time they want. If men have such rights for themselves,
women too should have these rights for themselves. Men are
given the right to marry a second wife. Thus some one comes and
says this is my new wife. A woman too may come and say this is
my new husband. By God, this is permitted by all religious laws
and is not forbidden. This circumstance is not prohibited by any
law or in any creed. It is only man's domination and tradition
that dictated this [that woman cannot marry a second husband].
We could all of us withdraw in one group and not leave in the
country anyone who participated in the revolution - so that no
one would have the pretext of claiming to have done you a favor
and telling you, I am the last remnant of those who staged the
revolution and liberated you, so move out of my way - we can
withdraw them all to Lebanon, Latin America or any other place
so that we can affirm to you that we have no imposed succession.
If I am killed tomorrow, nobody can dominate the people, for I
have no deputy to succeed at all.
Appointing vice presidents is a mistake.'Abd al-Nasir appointed
Zakariya Muhyi al-Din to succeed him. The Egyptians who love
'Abd al-Nasir and those in the know were against him [Zakariya].
How can he impose Zakariya Muhyi al-Din? 'Abd al-Nasir said,
I have resigned and leave office to my brother. How can this be?
We are a nation and a people. How can we accept this? 'Abd
al-Nasir chose Sadat as successor. This was a mistake. See what
Sadat has done. Sadat chose Mubarak to succeed him. Perhaps
tomorrow Husni Mubarak will select another person to succeed
him. Thus one appoints another to succeed him. Bourguiba has
appointed Mzali as a successor. One king appoints his sons as
successors and his sons appoint their own sons and son on.
When the Prophet Muhammad died, everything ended. The
mistake was ours for we appointed a caliph to succeed him. We
the Muslims appointed a successor for him. No such a thing was
decreed by God. There is no such word as caliph in the Koran
except that God had entrusted man to be his trustee on earth.
All budgets, from my own salary to the expenditure of the
people's Bureau in Rome or in India to the budget of the
intelligence department must be known to you and must be
approved by you. But this does not need to be publicized. If I visit
a congress and this was not advertised, then it becomes a secret
visit not broadcast over the radio. The same applies to the budget
of the intelligence department. Discuss it without advertising and
broadcasting it. The budget of the intelligence department and
the number of intelligence officers and their tasks - all are
matters you have to decide whether or not to disseminate. The
intelligence budget must be decided without the need to publicize
it. It is considered secdret in this case. For example, this is the
intelligence budget, this is the intelligence [word indistinct], and
this is their assignment. Do you want them or not? The day you
say you do not want them (?tear up the papers) and you will saving
money. Who needs the intelligence? Me? This one needs the
intelligence? Search and show me who needs the service?
The popular bureaus. If you want them, you run them. Fix a
budget for them. Maybe someone will pour scorn on the people's
(?bureau) when he sees the popular bureau give money tho this
or that man [words indistinct]. Or when one sings the praises of
the secretary of the people's bureau and you beg him to give you
accommodation at the best hotel. Who pays for it? The people
pay. It means the people are dupes. What sort of people's bureau
secretary behaves like this? He buys a pair of glasses for himself
or gives you a plane ticket; he puts someone else up at a hotel.
You must calculate their expenses to the last cent. You ask
him: How much have we transferred to you? He says 50,000.
You ask him: How did you spend it? You must obtain his
signature. The day you have your doubts you set up a court.
See how the Arabs (?behave). Iraq assassinated the secretary of
the Libyan People's Bureau in Rome. What an achievement!
Afterward they destroyed the cultural center in Malta. See how
absurd they have become. The glorious Arab nation. Baghdad:
the den of the lions and the Qiblah of glory and eternity. This is
the glory and these are the lions. They kill the secretary of the
Libyan People's Bureau in Rome and they burn books in Malta.
See how absurd the Arabs have become. [passage indistinct]
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On the occasion (not further specified), despite the fierce (?war)
between ourselves and the Egyptians as a result of their recogni-
tion of the enemy or even before that, the Egyptian media has
never reached the level of the Tunisian media. Never. All are
agreed on this. By God, an Arab ruler, on that day, (?spoke) to
me to say: How can [words indistinct]. He said tome: By God,
you have nerves of steel because you kept your cool and averted
a war. The words I heard from him are amazing. He said: By
God, if it was me I (?would have gone to war) whatever the case.
Actually, he (?would have gone to war) to destroy all the
mouthpieces hostile to him.
(?We) have never reached that level. But I thank the Tunisian
media because they have been mobilizing the Libyan people
against the Tunisian regime. (?Let) them level abuse and remain
at this low level. This will make the Libyan people even more
prepared for war. They are preparing the Libyan people (?for
war). The same thing applies to the Iraqi media. A torrent of
media attack against us will only make the Libyan people more
aligned with the Iranian revolution. When the Libyan people
listen to Baghdad radio, they will say: By God, you should
destroy it with rockets. We must give the missiles to Iran we must
fight alongside Iran as long as Iraq utters these words and stoops
so low and does all this. Also, when the Libyan people listen to
the Tunisian media the Libyan people harbor more hatred
against the Tunisian regime. [passage indistinct]
When the Tunisian officials talk politics they do not speak the
language of the media; they do not utter insults. But their media?
See the level they have stooped to. However, a black file must be
opened for everyone in the Tunisian media whether he wrote a
commentary in a newspaper, on the air, or if he said even two
words. The day will come when his moustache, his tongue, and
his hand which writes what he says, will be cut off. This day will
come. I am giving a warning as of now. However, everyone in the
Tunisian, media who has reached this level through his pen,
tongue, or the commentary he reads out on radio, must be
watched and monitored now. It must be noted that this or that
article was written by this or that person and that the com-
mentary was read by this or that person. This is because we will
take revenge. With us the free men in Tunisia will take revenge.
A day will come when someone will walk the street with his hand
cut off. Why? It is because he wrote an article one day. One must
say that when the Tunisian politicians attack us, truthfully, their
attack is political: it is not on the level of their media.
Despite the fact that the war between us and the Egyptians has
been going on longer and more acutely, the Egyptian media has
never reached the level of the Tunisian and Iraqi media. They
pour insults and shout and print abusive cartoons, but they do not
stoop as low as to use abuse against one's mother, father, and
sister. What an absurd thing this is. [words indistinct]
Also, I believe that if we attack Egypt, we should attack the
treason: Camp David. As to whether Husni Mubarak or the
Egyptians are good or not, this you should take out. [Words
indistinct] If they are short of food supplies, and no longer have
an agriculture or production, these matters concern them. This
also applies to Tunisia. We have nothing to do with their domestic
4P
Q 18 NORTH AFRICA
issues. We attack exploitation. We expose exploitation and how
they treat the workers and why the land is owned by feudalists
who use the rest of the people as land slaves. We do not attack
this or that state but the issues of exploitation and oppression.
These we must attack. We should offer an alternative. The
power, wealth, and arms must be in the peoples' hands. We
should entice the emergence of the revolutionary committees
everywhere and a new world green movement so that the masses
are able to embark on revolution and assume power and form the
popular congresses and the popular committees.
Here I will say: I will not be with you [words indistinct]. You
should not rely upon me and must not say: you are the cause of
this or that. I am not responsible. Everything is in your hands.
This time I explained more to you than I did before. If you the
popular congresses failed, the popular committees have the right
to act instead of you. They will become sovereign. This is written
in revolutionary conference literature.
Basic People's Congresses Begin 3d Ordinary Sessions
LD232021 Tripoli JANA in English 1911 GMT 23 Dec 85
[Text]Tripoli, Rabi Athani 9, Dec.23, JAMAHIRIYAH NEWS
AGENCY - The Basic People's Congresses all over the Social-
ist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriyah started this evening their
3d ordinary sessions for 1395 A.M.D. which coincides with 1985
A.D. The agenda of the Basic People's Congresses for this session
included the following:
- Follow up of the decisions the Basic People's Congresses
reached in their 3d ordinary session for 93-94 A.M.D. coinciding
with 1985 A.D. which were drafted at the General People's
Congress in its 10th ordinary session.
=Also included in the agenda are the plan, the budget, internal
policy, foreign policy, armed people, public transportation,
marine transport, education, economy and oil apart from the
general reports, general matters and a number of draft laws.
JANA: Burkinabe Leader'on: Border Forces Withdrawal
LD231845 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 1615 GMT 23 Dec 85
[Text]Tripoli, 23 Dec (JANA) =Brother leader of the revolution
received a message from Captain Thomas Sankara, chairman of
the National Council of the Revolution in the Jamahiriyah of
Burkina Faso. Captain Sankara emphasized in his message that
in response to the personal efforts of the brother leader of the
revolution concerning-the borders between Burkina Faso and the
Republic of Mali, the Jamahiriyah of Burkina Faso has decided
to withdraw its forces from the border area with Mali.
Cuban Minister of State on `Successful' Visit
L-D231833 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 1615 GMT 23 Dec 85
[Text] Tripoli, 23 Dec (JANA) - Levi Balmaseda Farah, Cuban
minister of state, left Tripoli this afternoon at the end of his visit
to the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriyah. In a
statement to JANA the Cuban minister noted that his visit to the
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