AL-QADHDHAFI DISCUSSES DEVELOPMENTS IN SUDAN

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400012-8
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 10
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: February 1, 2012
• Sequence Number: 12
• Publication Date: April 16, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

A.) Declassified and Approved For Release 2012/02/01: CIA-RDP05-01559R000400400012-8
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AI-Qadhdhafi Discusses Developments in Sudan
LD191613 Tripoli Voice ol'Greater Arab Homeland
in Arabic 23/5 GMT 16 Apr 85
[Interview granted by Libyan leader Mu'ammar al
by unidentified correspondent on 15 pri ;pace not given -
recorded]
[Text] [Correspondent] Brother Leader, what are your impres-
sions of the events surrounding the popular revolution in Sudan
and what are the direct and indirect causes that led to the
speeding up of the fall of the lackey Numayri's regime in Sudan?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] This is a happy occasion for me, to talk to the
people of Sudan, to the radio of the Voice of the Greater Arab
Homeland, and to its listeners in the Arab homeland.
I believe that the replies I will give you, members of the rev-
olutionary committees, can be useful to our brother listeners
helping them to get out of the current whirlpool and [words
indistinct], the question of succession, of the republic, of the
Army, of the Sudanese people.
~ y .
With regard to the first part of the question, my first impression
is that the road to the liberation of Sudan has been crowned with
the Army's seizure of power. My first impression is that it seems
the coup was against the May coup regime. It seems that the May
regime, beginning with Numayri and ending with others down
the list of the May coup regime, was the target of the present
movement. We can say that the May 1969 coup was not techni-
cally well-planned.
I do believe that the regime was destined to fall because it was a
regime without any ideology. The May 1969 coup differs from
the April 1985 coup. The May. 1969 coup was staged by officers
against whom we have. nothing, officers with popular and pro-
gressive aspirations. But Numayri succeeded in liquidating the
majority of the progressive, patriotic,, and revolutionary officers
after the May coup. [Words indistinct] patriotic officers led by
Numayri for few months.- . .
Among the reasons that led to the success of the coup is that
Numayri was not [word indistinct] in Sudan. I have repeated this
on several occasions [words indistinct].
For sometime we have said that the May coup has become a
fascist regime. With the passage of, time popular movements
began to manifest themselves anew, aimed at making the Suda-
nese people have a say in matters affecting their destiny.
Numayri, however, considered any complaint against the fascist
authority which existed then, before April, as a challenge to the
regime and an act of encroachment against it and consequently
the regime would rise to defend itself and the authority became
directed against the masses.
Secondly, the situation in Sudan proceeded exactly in line with
our analysis and our explanations as contained in the Green Book
and according to theory which says that any authority [words,
13- Ir. 11
Q:
indistinct] the people, even if it is friendly to the people and even
if a? movement has staged a revolution or a coup or a change for
the sake of the realization of the popular aspirations. However,
such a movement [words indistinct] and consequently a confron-
tation is bound to ensue between it and the people, and in the end
it becomes a repressive authority and a fascist authority. This
happened in the case of 'Abd al-Karim .Qasim and is happening
in the case of the current situation in Iraq.'Abd al-Karim Qasim
carried out a coup in the name of sacrifice. But the revolution
was defeated because those who carried out the revolution
remained in power.' Inevitably, confrontation would take place
between such an authority and the people. What has happened
in Sudan is that the events proceeded along the lines of the
analyses put forward by the Green Book and according to the
concepts embodied in the Jamahiri theory which, as we have
already said, provides that any authority, even if it is-friendly to
the people, will with the passage of time become an enemy of the
people.
Thus, I personally have witnessed Sudan many times since the
1970s, and followed the popularity of Numayri and the pop-
ularity of the May movement. Then we witnessed the recession
of the popularity of Numayri and that of the May movement, the
revenge against it and finally its overthrow and liquidation.
Why? Because this movement dropped out of the category -of
military coup by clinging to power. Naturally, the people, in
accordance with the Jamahiri theory which provides for the
people's defense of themselves, opposed it [words indistinct]. He
sought the help of the Egyptian forces because he was afraid of
the Sudanese people. He was even afraid of the police. Numayri
resorted also to forming a state security department and a central
security force. He also sought the help of the Egyptian forces and
finally he sought the help of America. All these forces were.
amassed to bolster the regime against the people.
This is not important, however. What is important is that the
regime failed to hand over power to the people. Ultimately the
people demanded power and finally triumphed. Even 'Abd al-
Nasir, the beloved of the masses, clashed with the students in
1968 at the University of Alexandria with the result that the
students staged a sit-in strike and destroyed.some of its faculties
such as the science faculty. There were even demonstrations and
sit-ins in Cairo. But they'were not against'Abd al-Nasir, whom
the people loved, but against the authority which 'Abd al-Nasir'
represented.,
There are direct and indirect reasons that led *to speeding up the
fall of Numayri. The indirect-reasons we all know. They lie" in
the nature of the regime: It remained a regime while the people
remained a people and consequently confrontation between them
was inevitable.
The Arab countries decided at the Baghdad summit conference
to boycott the Egyptian regime-which committed an act of high
treason. Numayri refused to boycott the Egyptian regime.'He
defied the Sudanese people and the Arab nation and the Palestin-
ian people. He intentionally paid several visits to Egypt and
deliberately walked in Al-Sadat's funeral along with Begin.
He joined hands with Al-Sadat and Husni Mubarak. He defied
every Arab voice raised in condemnation of Sudan's recognition'
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Foreign Ministry sources in Jerusalem told reporter Ruth
Blaukopf that Israel greatly appreciates the Dutch representa-
tion of Israeli interests in Moscow and is looking into the matter.
The Israeli sources would not confirm specific details of the
Dutch statement, but acknowledged that the citizenship papers
were being transferred as part of the struggle for the emigration
rights of Jews in the Soviet Union.
Correction to Prime Minister Office Chief Interview
There has been a correction to the interview with Avraham
Tamir, director general of the Prime Minister's Office, published
in the 19 April Middle East & Africa DAILYREPORT on page
1 4. Paragraph 14, line 4 should read "...of Tabah belongs to us,
whereas this is..."(changing "Egypt" to "us").
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of a regime which recognized the Israelis. Numayri went far in
his disregard of the Sudanese people and of the Arab nation and
increased his ties with the Egyptian regime further and further.
His defiance even went to the extent of passing under the Isreli
flag in the vanquished capital.
Generally speaking, Sudan's subservience to Egypt and stable
David was a blow struck by Numayri's regime which made the
Sudanese people feel ashamed and disgraced by Sudan's attach-
ment to a country which recognizes the enemy, the Israeli enemy.
His hostility toward the Jamahiriyah and toward Ethiopia were
contributing factors to his downfall. The trivialities which he
introduced in the name of the Islamic Shari'a led to the secession
of the south from the north and to the people's hatred even for
the Islamic Shari'a. The problem with Sudan was that it was
introduced a specific type of Shari'a. The holy Shari'a in a
country like Sudan is the Shari'a laid down by the people
themselves. This is because there are numerous religions in
Sudan. There are even people who worship idols.
The Falasha Jews were smuggled on the orders of America. This
is the hardest thing we can tolerate as masses. It was carried out
under American conditions in return for food and essentials
needed by the Sudanese, who have no purchasing power.
Numayri submitted to the conditions of the IMF which is domi-
nated by the United States.
The question, in fact, could have been how did Numayri manage
to remain for such a long time in power? He prolonged his
regime's life by a number of charlatan actions.
The first thing was the case of the Sudanese Communist Party,
and I was a witness to this in Khartoum. He then struck at the
[words indistinct] Communist Party. He relied on force [words
indistinct]. He then made peace with Al-Ansar and the Unionists.
Finally, he allied himself to a party called the Muslim
Brotherhood, whom he used to torture. He tried to restore dignity
to the Unionists and Al-Ansar.
Generally speaking, the May movement failed to solve the eco-
nomic problems of Sudan. This resulted in hunger and thirst,
particularly the thirst we have all witnessed in Sudan, when he
had rain and rivers. Thus there was thirst, there was hunger, and
there were diseases that spread in Sudan. He failed to face up to
any of the problems. This is the fate of whoever antagonizes Arab
unity, socialism, the Jamahiriyah, and the revolution in Ethiopia
and elsewhere and champions reactionary stands and defeatist
stands and the capitulationist solutions and surrenders his affairs
to America.
Indeed, the fall of Numayri was magnificent: to fall when he was
in the lap of Reagan. This indicates that America cannot protect
anybody. Furthermore, his fall as a lesson to whoever hands over
his coutnry to America.
In the last stage, he handed Sudan over to America. He asked
them to build bases for the Rapid Deployment Forces in Sudan
in return for measures to protect his regime. He accepted all their
conditions and visited them.
The strange thing is that as we all know, Numayri was America's
arch enemy at one time. I mean it is not in his nature to act in
this manner. It seems that this was a deliberate political course.
He went too far in his disregard of the Sudanese people and in
his defiance of the Jamahiriyah by his actions. He believed that
he can depend on a superpower, which is America, to protect him.
But he forgot the lessons of Iran, Ethiopia, Idriss al-Sinusi, Lon
Nol, Batista, and Somoza. Numayri failed to learn these lessons.
[Correspondent] The people brought down the regime of the
fascist military clique led by General 'Abbud. They did not wane
or stop then. They continued with their sweeping revolution
against exploitation and repression until they brought down on 6
April this year the fascist regime of the lackey Numayri. What
relation do you see between the two cases and what is the
commander's evaluation of the political maturity enjoyed by our
Arab people in Sudan?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] It is the same inevitable line explained in the
Green Book with its theses and Jamahiri theory. Any authority
that takes a stand against the masses begins to collapse and have
confrontation with the masses. This is exactly what happened.
There was a fascist regime, the 'Abbud regime. There was a
generally fascist regime in 1964. The situation then was very
similar to the situation that existed at the time of the 6 April
revolution. We admit that the Sudanese people were the most
conscious of the Arab people and the most enduring in their
struggle.
The Sudanese people were the people who fought the fascist
regime. Other fascist regimes are sitting confortably, except, of
course, for the Lebanese people who fought the Israeli occupation
and the Sudanese people who fought against fascism. There are
no positive signs in the Arab homeland.
The revolution of 6 April is a repetition of the revolution of
October 1964. The revolution will repeat itself twice and thrice
if the conditions that follow the April revolution are similar to
those which followed the October revolution.
[Correspondent] [Words indistinct] so that the tragedy will not be
repeated as was the case with 'Abbud and Numayri?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] So that the tragedy will not be repeated and the
Sudanese people will not be forced to offer more sacrifices and
have instability, the road leading to this result should not be
pursued. If military rule is established it will be confronted by
the popular masses. If a partisan rule, a one party rule is
established, it will be faced with opposition from the other
parties.
The situation in Sudan, we admit, is very intricate. First, there
are traditional parties in Sudan. Second, there are the trade
unions, vocational trade unions. In addition, there are new rev-
olutionary forces, some of which are visible and some are not
visible. This is in addition to the military establishment which is
a reflection of all these other forces. I mean there are within the
Armed Forces elements which support the traditional parties.
There are other elements which belong to the trade unions. There
is also a new extremist force with elements within the military
establishment.
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V. 22 Apr 85 Q 3 NORTH AFRICA
Sudan is at present in a situation which makes it impossible for will reappear and could be violent this time between officers and
the military to rule it exclusively. I mean it is impossible for the civilians, and there could be armed violence. There is a fear that`
military to continue in power without facing colossal troubles. If the civilians may use arms against the military institutions. The"
a party tries to rule Sudan it can never succeed, whatever party latter possess guns, machineguns and aircraft yet their action was
it may be from among the traditional parties, be they Al-Ansar, peaceful. But if civilians were to face up to other civilians there
the Unionists, the Communists or the Islamic. None of these is a likelihood that they would use arms and violence on a large
parties can assume government by itself. This is because there is scale against them.
a balance. These parties have failed in authority. We are talking
about an intricate problem. The Army cannot remain in power, The four parties cannot continue in power because there is a'
otherwise demonstrations will take to the streets anew. No one growing revolutionary force, a new growing revolutionary force,
party can assume office. This is because the other parties will not which rejects the parties. There are also the unions which have
let it. As for the trade unions, they are not political organizations massively and effectively contributed, played a decisive role, in
able to rule. Besides, no trade union can dominate and rule. the toppling of Numayri. These unions would not permit power
to be handed over to the parties. Naturally, trade unions are not
One could ask then how can Sudan be ruled? We must confess parties. The parties, naturally, have some federations and unions.
that there is a crisis and an intricate situation. There are only two But we cannot say that the present trade unions in Sudan 'are
ways to solve this problem. The first way is the success of a violent partisan trade unions. The unions, in fact, are the.ones that
revolutionary extremist action by any side. The military estab- brought down Numayri.
lishment itself could be the one that embarks on this extremist
action. It embarks on physical liquidation of all the traditional Well, if we exclude the four parties and give power to the unions,-:'
forces and imposes its dictatorship similar to the proletariat how would the unions rule? The unions' councils will have,a
revolution which liquidated the opposing classes and imposed confrontation with the parties which were denied power. If we
itself, or similar to the bloody military dictatorships. To some bring the unions and parties together and hand power over to
extent, Numayri constitutes one such form, when he carried out them, what form will this power have? The important thing is the
bloody, liquidations and on a number of occasions affirmed popular base, the masses' base and that of the ordinary citizen;
military power. This helped to prolong his life but it does not of the revolutionary forces which did not join these traditional..
provide the final solution. organizations. There will constantly be a problem. There are. the
revolutionary committees and the Islamic extremists 'and the
One side might embark on the physical liquidation of all the non-traditional forces. There are other forces that must also be
forces now in the arena. This is a difficult choice. The force that taken into consideration. There are the forces of the trained and
reaches this level of extremism in violence and the liquidation of' armed fronts abroad.
its opponents might not be a revolutionary or progressive one.
Any one of the parties might assume such extremism and arm Naturally, I am in contact with these fronts because we sup-
itself and then carry out such an act, or the military establish- ported and organized them against Numayri. Now we ask them
ment could do this. to go into the country and to lay down their arms and build
Sudan. We no longer encourage the ones abroad against, the
In the absence of such a thing happening, the only alternative regime. If they persist with this, they do so on their own respon-
would be the Jamahiri system for Sudan. Every region would sibility alone.
govern itself by itself through the creation of popular conferences
or popular committees to assume administration. The whole of There are two fronts in [words indistinct]: the front led by Ahmad
Sudan would then join together on various levels. This is the most Sa'd which is spiritually dominated by Waliyi al-Din and [words
suitable for Sudan which has a variety of races, tribes, languages, indistinct]. They dream about returning. There is a retired rev-
dialk. s, and religions, even geographic regions. Sudan is more olutionary patriotic colonel, who returned on several occasions
suitable for a Jamahiri system. I do not know if the [words [words indistinct) from London and [words indistinct]. He too has
indistinct] is so: that the people rule themselves by themselves formed a front [words indistinct] Ya'qub Ismail. This colonel is
without any proxy. a tough and patriotic man. [Words indistinct] he has a large active'
front. [Words indistinct]'Abdallah Zakariyah.
The parties are not the people. If the parties were to rule, it would
be like a liberal rule, but we cannot call it a people's rule but party There is also the Communist Party which is abroad. There are
rule. If the Army were to rule, we do not say that it is a people's the Unionists in two sections: a section inside Sudan and another
rule but the rule of the Army. The military would be ruling. If outside-it. The section outside used to get training. There are also
author' ' were to be handed over - there are four parties, as is independent elements, governors of some provinces.
known, but they do not constitute the Sudanese people. It would
be the rule of the leadership and members of these parties but There is another force which has struggled. Authority should not
not the rule of the rest of the people who are not members of these be entrusted to the parties, trade unions, or to the parties and
parties. We can say it is the rule of the four parties and we can trade unions together, or to the Army. [Words indistinct] peas-
no longer say it is a partisan rule. The authority would be then ants. They formed armed divisions. We were responsible for
for the parties and not for the people. arming them and bringing them to this level. This is because they
aligned with the Sudanese people and the Sudanese Popular
If the parties assume power, another problem will arise from the Armed Forces [words indistinct].
trade unions and the other revolutionary forces. Demonstrations
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V. 22 Apr 85
NORTH AFRICA
It is difficult to rind a solution. Any solution found will have to
be temporary and not guaranteed, unless a Jamahiri regime is
established, in which every region governs itself through the
popular conferences and popular committees. The Jamahiri
regime would solve the problems of language, geographic distri-
bution, and so forth.
But this system is not comprehensible to our brothers in Sudan.
The.Green Book is not spread there and the same applies to the
revolution's theses. It is difficult now to make the parties change
their identities and accept this system. The people's authority
means no democracy without popular conferences and commit-
tees everywhere. The party represents a section of the people, but
the people cannot be divided.
[Correspondent] Whenever a revolution takes place in any coun-
try; various quarters try to contain them. The popular revolution
in Sudan is being exposed to such attempts. What do you think
of these attempts which aim at imposing custodianship on
Sudan? And what are the risks involved in this?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Even under Numayri's rule there was no unity
between Egypt and Sudan. To this day I wish to see unity
established between Egypt and Sudan, or unity between any two
Arab peoples [words indistinct].
The Sudanese. position, however, can be understood from the
statements they uttered 'and this was manifested by their recent
demonstrations when they chanted: Husni Mubarak, you are a
traitor! and: Down, down! [last two words spoken in English].
You will remember that Faruq was king of Egypt and Sudan.
When he signed the abdication document following the July 1952
revolution, he signed it as king of Egypt and Sudan. The present
rulers of Egypt still wear Faruq's crown and his view of Sudan:
Every Egyptian ruler considers himself just another Faruq, con-
siders himself king of Egypt and Sudan. But after'Abd al-Nasir,
the situation changed and the Sudanese people were left to
determine their own fate. But even now, Egyptian rulers consider
themselves kings of Egypt and Sudan. Husni Mubarak, and
before him Al-Sadat [words indistinct].
Any regime in Sudan that is hostile to Egypt can harm Egypt. It
can [words indistinct] the Nile or block the Nile. This being the
case, the situation is upside down. For who really needs the other?
Sudan or Egypt? Egypt needs Sudan. Then Egypt should be the
one to be attached to Sudan, which could impose on Egypt
anything Sudan wants: Because in the final analysis, it is Sudan
that can choke the Nile and stop the Nile's resources and
dominate it.
How can Sudan, which controls the resources of the Nile, be
subservient to Egypt which needs it? Egypt needs Sudan [words
indistinct]. We believe, however, that the situation will be
redressed, and that Egypt will become attached to the Sudan
[words indistinct] and Egypt will find itself obliged to [words
indistinct] monopolizes the Nile resources [words indistinct].
What is happening at present is the reverse situation. The Suda-
nese people, we admit, [words indistinct] placing the cart before
the horse. When Egypt becomes 'attached to Sudan, then the
horse will be in front of the cart. This is because Sudan controls
the resources of the Nile and Egypt needs Sudan.
It is a well known fact that the Egyptians look upon the Sudanese
as slaves. [Words indistinct] the Egyptians have an imperialist
view of Sudan, a view tht goes back to the days when the British
controlled both countries and when Faruq considered himself
king of both Egypt and Sudan. The imperialist outlook continues.
We believe that the Sudanese revolution was in fact a revolution
against subservience to Egypt and. against Egyptian hegemony
and Egyptian colonialism. If it had not been for Numayri -
because he is the lackey Numayri - this state of affairs would
not have existed.
Because Al-Sadat was the chief, Numayri had no alternative.
When the chief joined stable David, the lackey also entered the
stable. It is like a donkey and its tail. The donkey is represented
by Al-Sadat and Husni Mubarak. The tail is Numayri. When
the head of the animal entered stable David the tail followed it
[words indistinct].
If Egypt had continued as it was in the days of Jamal `Abd
al-Nasir, then we have no objection to Sudan following behind
Egypt. [Words indistinct] when Egypt commits high treason and
[words indistinct], should Sudan allow itself to be accused of high
treason too? No! Sudan should oppose this. [passage indistinct]
[Correspondent] Brother commander, what effect will the success
of the popular revolution in Sudan have on the agent Arab
regimes? What is the future of the popular revolution in the Arab
homeland? What are your guidelines particularly concerning
overt and covert revolutionary committees?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] Undoubtedly the Arab reaction has not learned
the lesson. We hope now that it will learn' the lesson. The
reactionary rulers [word indistinct]. The important thing is that
the Arab detachments should establish contact among them-
selves. [passage indistinct]
This is not a limited scientific analysis. But it is also a call from
us to the Egyptian workers, to. the Egyptian trade unions, to the
Egyptian people, and to all the Egyptians and the Egyptian
[words indistinct) should start demonstrations, strikes, sit-ins,
and civil disobedience in order to end the reign of treason and
hegemony which is daily supplying the Israeli enemy with fuel
and iron, which in turn is transformed into weapons used to kill
the Lebanese and the Palestinians. The Israelis planned to liqui-
date the northern front. [words indistinct] and turn the homeland
into statelets. [passage indistinct]
The defeat of the Israelis in southern Lebanon at the hands of
the Lebanese fighters has debunked their argument, and should
encourage the Egyptians to topple the regime and destroy the
Egyptian-Israeli agreement and stable David [words indistinct].
It should encourage the other countries to join the Arab rev-
olution for the liberation of Palestine. [passage indistinct]
The present generation of revolutionary committees will bring
about the changes which will transform the world from a world
of governments to a world of masses and put an end to social
suppression.
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But as for Sudan, the military commanders who saved Sudan a
great deal of trouble by joining the people at the decisive moment
and toppling the fascist Numayri regime should not be allowed
by anyone to become lax. I hope the revolution in Sudan will not
be aborted or that subservience will continue.
[Correspondent] Brother Commander, observers are unanimous
in saying that the victory of the popular revolution in Sudan was
a victory for the theory of the age of the masses and what
Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi advocates and instigates. How can the
fraternal Sudanese. people safeguard their Jamahiri gains and
build their popular authority?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] We have said that all indications point to the fact
that the entire world is now moving toward the age of the masses:
from the individual, to the group, to the parties, to the fronts. The
base of participation in government has widened. This will not
stop half way, but will continue until all the people attain power
and the establishment of the government of all the people, which
is the Jamahiri system. Thus, the hierarchy system will be
brought down and replaced by the horizontal system: the system
of conferences and,committees everywhere.
What has taken place in Sudan is considered to be in line with
the Jamahiri theses. There will be no halting in the middle of the
road. Inevitably, the march of the masses will continue. Today,
the people no longer accept rule by a party or a ruler or a soldier.
The people now have the confidence in themselves to rule them-
selves by themselves. Every ordinary citizen must die in order to
determine his fate, as has happened in southern Lebanon. The
ordinary citizen has now decided his fate: He is prepared to die.
This is the more important because proxy for the people has
failed. The solution is for the people to determine their own fate
by themselves.
If I had been a ruler in Sudan, I would [words indistinct] Sudan
and its problems. [Words indistinct] the General People's Com-
mittee, the trade unions, federations, and the unity of the masses.
[Words indistinct] popular committees everywhere and solve your
problems. [passage indistinct)
Whoever rules Sudan at present is in an unenviable position.
[passage indistinct] Today I spoke with Driss Djazairi, chairman
of the International Fund for Agricultural Development. Libya
is a major contributor to the International Fund for Agricultural
Development and this position gives it some sort of rights and
influence in making requests to the fund, and Driss Djazairi was
a companion of Boumedienne and he is an Arab and a fervant
Arab and a man without a blemish and he sympathizes strongly
with Sudan. I asked him when I met him in Tripoli a few days
ago that, in view of the fact that Libya is a major contributor to
the fund, I request that after Numayri was gotten rid of Sudan
should be given priority in the projects of the International Fund
for Agricultural Development. Brother Driss agreed enthusiasti-
cally. God willing, we will draw up a joint plan between Libya
and the fund for the implementation of agricultural development
projects in Sudan to be given priority.
4P
Q 5 NORTH AFRICA
Zionist enemy - and its failure to sever relations with Egypt at
the Baghdad summit conference.
This was a strong political blow to the Numayri regime. Thus the
Numayri regime was exposed politically and economically. Fur-
thermore, it took a hostile stand against the active forces: It
antagonized Ethiopia and Libya. It attached itself to Egypt but
took a hostile position toward the USSR. It surrendered itself to
America.
Indeed, this is the road of loss. It is clear that it was in a muddled
state. Libya is very influential in the world, not only in the
adjoining and the feeble regimes. At one time, Libya armed and
trained and enabled the Sudanese people to seize Khartoum for
2 whole days. It was Libya that brought Numayri out of prison
at the time of the unionist coup when it believed that Numayri
had become a supporter of unity. We, Libya, was the one that
reinstated Numayri in power and aborted the military coup
attempt by Abu Bakr al-Nur against Numayri.
When a mutiny took place at the Aba Island and at the time we
believed that a revolutionary regime was in existence in Sudan,
Libya played an influential role in crushing this mutiny against
what we believed then to be a revolutionary regime in Sudan.
Naturally, after that they allied themselves with us and the
Al-Ansar allied themselves with us and we armed them against
Numayri. The communists became friends of ours and allied
themselves with us following that coup.
Things changed after it became evident that the Numayri regime
was a fascist regime and a hostile regime. When Numayri
antagonized Libya, he began to sink gradually [words indistinct].
Nobody can bet on the agent Egyptian regime, a regime so weak
that whenever it faces economic or political crisis it runs to seek
America's protection. Numayri bet on the Egyptian regime and
defied the Libyan regime, the staunch, popular, growing regime
which is free of [words indistinct] but popular conferences and
popular committees and revolutionary force [words indistinct].
Indeed, Libya is awesome and has influence on both sides. I am
not saying this because I am Libyan. Libya is awesome and very
awesome indeed. It has positive and negative influence. Those
against whom it takes a hostile stand are harmed and those it
befriends benefit. The reasons for this are known to all.
Thus, by taking a hostile stand toward Libya, Numayri was
walking on a road with a fixed limit, he walked to his doom by
antagonizing Libya, and his acceptance of American radio sta-
tions against Libya encouraged the stray dogs. But the stray dogs
have been slaughtered and he was expelled from Khartoum. This
is the fate of anyone who takes a hostile stand against Libya. He
went even further to antagonize Ethiopia, the USSR, and the
progressive forces in the world and recognized stable David and
placed his hand in the hand of Egypt and placed his hand in the
hand of America. This is the road of loss.
[Correspondent] Brother commander, how can Sudan emerge
from its choking economic crisis and overcome the heavy legacy
left by Numayri, the lackey?
In addition to the economic aspects, the regime in Sudan was
sterile because of its subservience to Egypt and its recognition of
stable David - because of its recognition it also recognized the
[Al-Qadhdhafi] This, brother, rests in changing all the oppressive
relations in the street now: the abolition of the system of min-
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isters. The workers should take over the factories and set up
people's conferences and workers popular committees and [words
indistinct] production and they turn into partners. New slogans
should be applied: He who produces consumes. The system of
employers should be abolished and private trade should be abol-
ished and so will be the contractors and brokers and employers
who have increased the prices of commodities used by the ordi-
nary consumer. The merchants used to buy a commodity for 5
and sell it for 20 and sometimes for a 100 - there was no limit.
This kind of merchant cheats the ordinary citizen, the consumer.
Sudanese citizens have no purchasing power. Their currency is
very weak and is in short supply. Thus the citizen was a prey to
the forces of exploitation.. The forces of exploitation must be
eliminated because no longer is there master and servant,
employer and worker. The house should belong to the occupier
and the car to him the driver and the land to the cultivater; he
who produces consumes his produce. All consumer vocations in
Sudan should be abolished. Nobody should any longer be allowed
to sell only, to buy a commodity for 5 and sell it for 20. This sort
of work is riot productive and must end. The people must be
responsible for this. The people buy a commodity for 5 and sell
it to themselves for 5, that is, at cost price.
Nobody should be allowed to take a consumer vocation. One
makes candy, another becomes a photographer, a third becomes
a barber or opens a coffee shop. Such people must move into
productive work. They must set up a workshop, a carpentry shop,
become a blacksmith, a repair man, a plumber, a farmer.
The Sudanese people concentrated on the land and the vocations,
and the foreigners took over the businesses. The Sudanese need
investments. Arab countries such as Libya, Kuwait, Saudi Ara-
bia and other wealthy countries, should invest their money in
Sudan through the establishment of agricultural projects on a
wide scale and on the basis of joint ventures. Half of the produc-
tion of these projects would be for Sudan while the other half
would go to the investing country. For example, Libya would take
a piece of land covering several thousand hectares and plant
wheat. Sudan would provide the land and water and Libya would
provide the investment: the money, the seeds and so on. The
produce would then be shared equally between Sudan and Libya.
Saudi Arabia could do the same and so could Kuwait.
Economic integration could even take place. I believe Libya
should be prepared to reclaim wide areas of Sudan and particu-
larly to cultivate them with wheat, so that Sudan would become
self-sufficient and expert wheat.
Libya should invest large sums of money in the Nile Valley and
in rain water reservoirs and subterranean wells for use in wheat
cultivation.
The Sudanese people should be steered toward animal breeding.
I mean the bourgeoisie towns should be abolished, the consumer
towns should be abolished and so should consumer vocations and
the consumer and bourgeoisie classes which make others work
while they sit comfortably.
In short, what is needed is the implementation of Chapter 2 of
the Green Book on the economy and the solution of the economic
problem of Sudan, so that Sudan may emerge from its crisis, with
the cooperation of Arab countries in setting a system of joint
ventures in Sudan coupled with rejection of the conditions of the
international banks which are dominated by the United States.
Their conditions must be rejected even if this leads to the loss of
aid from thoese international banks.
These banks have destroyed several countries and brought them
to their knees. They did not solve those countries' economic
problems but left them in the grip of America.
Sudan cannot solve its problems through American-dominated
banks because America's objective is to subjugate Sudan and to
subjugate the Arab nation and the Third World and to blackmail
them. These conditions must be rejected.
When Numayri accepted the conditions set by these banks, the
crisis took place and intensified. The people starved and came out
onto the streets. The door must be closed in America's face. I
believe that in Sudan hatred is mounting against America and
the Egyptian regime. This was evident from the demonstrations.
America is being hit and is losing but it has not learned the lesson
of Sudan. America is blinded by its prowess and it belittles the
Arab nation.
[Correspondent] Brother Leader, the problem of southern Sudan
is a [words indistinct] problem. This problem [words indistinct].
In the opinion of the brother commander, how can a sound and
lasting solution for this problem be found so that fraternal Sudan
can regain its unity and become a strong rock within this nation?
[Al-Qadhdhafi] This is yet another very complicated problem,
but we must first analyze it. Chapter 3 of the Green Book deals
with minorities. Let us first see what constitutes a minority and
what are its rights and duties and how to solve the problem of
minorities in accordance with the solutions provided for the
various problems of man in light of the third' universal theory.
Minorities are divided into two types. A minority which belongs
to a nation and consequently its social framework is part of that
nation. A minority without a nation has no other social
framework than itself. This latter minority constitutes the his-
torical residues which eventually form a nation by virtue of
common destiny and affiliation. This minority has its own social
rights, as has become evident to us. Social character is an
inherent character and cannot be granted or withdrawn.
Economic and political problems can only be solved through the
Jamahiri society, in which the masses possess authority, wealth
and arms.
To look upon minorities as minorities from a political or economic
point of view amounts to striking a wedge in the homeland. I f our
brothers in southern Sudan constitute a minority, then we must
decide whether they constitute a minority of first type or of the
second type. If it is of the first type, then it is a minority with a
nation. But where is its nation? It must rejoin its nation. The fact
is that southern Sudan is not Arab and even not Muslim. They
belong to another nation. The Green Book says that the solution
of such a problem lies in rejoining this minority to the mother
nation, like the rejoining of the Kurds to their nation: the Kurds
of Iraq, the Kurds of Turkey, and the Kurds of Iran. Why should
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we persecute them. The are part of the Kurdistani nation. Thus
they must merge together and we should lift our hands from
them. The Arabs demanded independence, and the Turks perse-
cuted them and considered their demands an act of mutiny
against the Ottoman Sultan - they actually persecuted us in the
name of Shuubism, though what we had was actually a pan-Arab
movement aimed at the liberation of the Arab nation from the
Turkish nation; it was a conflict between pan-Arabism and
Ottoman nationalism. The Green Book affirms that the conflict
that formulated the map of the world was a religious and
nationalist conflict. It started as religious and ended as national-
ist because the nationalist is what dominates in the end.
If the conflict in southern Sudan is a nationalist one, then its only
solution is through nationalism - respect of other nationalisms.
But for someone from southern Sudan to come to me and say I
am a Negro and I want independence and the Arabs have
occupied my land and oppressed me, I am sorry there is nothing
I can say to him. Unity with Sudan is unity with us as Arabs and
should take place with the approval of that nationalism. Other-
wise, those of that nationalism who are brought into such a unity
will rebel again and again and so it will not last.
I met with John Garang and exchanged views with him. He is a
revolutionary, progressive man. He did not want his movement
to be a secessionist movement. However, he wanted to liberate
Numayri's Sudan. Even Eritrea in the days of Haile Selassie used
to say that it wanted to liberate Ethiopia. We armed it and
trained it because it was a revolutionary movement against Haile
Selassie. But after the start of the revolution in Addis Ababa, we
could not continue to arm Eritrea and train it against the
revolution which we advocated against Haile Selassie. We
became allies of Mengistu. But the revolution in Eritrea has not
ended. The Eritreans continue with their revolution and demand
independence.
The southern Sudan movement could be a revolution or a rebel-
lion against the Numayri regime. We have armed it and trained
it as we did with Eritrea. But now that Numayri has fallen, the
southern Sudan movement could become similar to that of
Eritrea and demand independence. So far, I am not sure of this.
All we know is that John Garang is a revolutionary and an ally
of ours. We meet with him in terms of revolutionary principles.
He is not a reactionary but a revolutionary. By God, when he says
he is a Negro and a Christian and he does not want the Arabs, if
I were a Sudanese I would have no argument to face him with in
this case. I respect the will of any nationalism, the will of any
nation.
If they want to remain within Sudan, then the solution - as
stated in Chapter 3 of the Green Book - lies in the creation of
a Jamahiri society in which there is no room for conflict between
Arab and Negro or between an Arab village and a Negro village.
Every village would govern itself. They have no relations with
each other. The Arab village would not govern the Negro village
and the Negro village would not govern the Arab village. Each
would have its people's conference and its people's committee.
They would only meet in the national conference, the General
People's Congress and the general people's committees at the
Sudanese national level.
There is no solution other than the Jamahiri system when all
these oases, villages, and towns will become self-governed entities
within a Sudanese Jamahiriyah.
There could, of course, be secession. But, naturally, I hope there
will not be secession. I have made efforts to persuade John
Garang not to secede and not to continue with his war. We now
support the regime in Sudan be it one of military, parties, trade
unions, or all these collectively or be it a Jamahiri system. Indeed,
we cannot but support Sudan from now on.
What we are saying now represents our views and our analysis
which we express in a neutral manner about what Sudan could
or could not do. Whatever direction Sudan takes, whether it is
governed by the parties, the military, the trade unions, or a
Jamahiri system, we will still support Sudan and we will support
it in all cases.
Our problems with Sudan have ended with the end of Numayri.
We are confident that nobody in Sudan will become a new
Numayri. Nor do I believe that subservience to stable David will
continue or that the disgrace Egypt brought upon itself will entice
the Sudanese to continue with their subservience. It is not right
that Sudan should remain attached to Egypt. We believe that the
Sudanese possess sufficient capabilities to save it from being
subservient. However, Sudan will always remain sympathetic to
Egypt.
We are continuing our efforts to persuade Dr John Garang to
stop the war and to begin negotiations with our brothers in
Khartoum. In fact, I am against the continuation of the fighting
in southern Sudan. If the fighting continues it means there is
something else going on. If the fighting continues, then there
must be another objective other than the toppling of Numayri
because Numayri has already fallen.
We are allies of Garang. We have provided him with arms and
training. Therefore, our evaluation of matters will be one and the
same. I believe there is no alternative to negotiations and the
unification of Sudan. I hope the south will unite with Sudan, but
it must secure its rights. But the securing of southern Sudan's
rights cannot be accomplished through the grant of provincial
rule. Even Numayri tried that. He brought his vice president,
Joseph Lagu, from the south and appointed him a vice president
in Khartoum. There was one other [words indistinct]. All of them
were made vice presidents and he assigned them self-governed
regions. But this did not solve the problem and as we have seen,
the fighting renewed.
The problem cannot be solved by repetition of past formulas.
Either a Jamahiri society is established in Sudan and this will
solve all the problems of Sudan categorically and consequently.
No demonstrations, no sit-ins, and no mutiny, or nothing will
happen again, for then the government will belong to all the
people and there will be conferences and committees everywhere,
or, in fact, I cannot [A]-Qadhdhafi seems to hesitate] encourage
myself to continue explaining such a delicate situation which
concerns a sister state in the traditional sense of the word. But
we are prepared to help in bringing about Sudan's unity and
Sudan's growth and the solution of the problem of southern
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Sudan. We are now friends of both: those in Khartoum and those
in the south.
Members of the revolutionary committees, I believe, have now
carried out their duties. The popular revolution is the revolution
of the future. Revolutionary committees are the nucleus, indeed,
the tools, of the popular revolution. Revolutionary committees
consist of individuals, who through the Green Book, come to
realize the falsehood of contemporary democracy and the truth
about the exploitive societies and thus become revolutionaries.
So that their individual revolutions do not become mere individ-
ual desparate suicidal attempts, they join ranks together and set
up revolutionary committees everywhere.
It is not the task of revolutionary committees to assume power.
Otherwise they become a constitutional tool for upholding
authority to the exclusion of the masses and on their behalf.
The new cry uttered by the masses provides that there shall be
no proxy for the people and representation is nothing but an act
of charlatanry. This is the new tide which the revolutionary
committees are working on to replace reactionary theses, the best
of which revolves around the idea of providing the best represen-
tation of the people.
The duty of revolutionary committees is to instigate the masses
to stage revolution, so that the masses themselves attain power.
Revolutionary committees are the tools for the organization of
the masses overtly and covertly in' popular conference and pop-
ular committees. Revolutionary committees are the tools for
leading the masses to undermine the foundation of despotic
authority which is dominating the people.
Thus, revolutionary committees are the political and practical
framework which embraces revolutionary forces everywhere.
They are the revolutionary commands of the wide masses, daily
leading them toward advanced positions. Revolutionary commit-
tees are also the nerve system that sets the masses in motion. They
constitute the arteries of society, which is undergoing rev-
olutionary transformation. They are the tools for heralding the
new civilization. They are also the tools for advocating pan-Arab
and religious unity.
The revolutionary committee member is the model of the new
man, the ideal man who is committed to his religion and to his
nation. He is a good example to be followed in skill and work. He
is the herald of the new civilization and of the start of the age of
the masses.
Following the success of the people's revolution, which is orga-
nized and led by revolutionary committees and after the assump-
tion of authority by the masses, the duty of revolutionary
committees is to instigate the masses to exercise authority,
consolidate the people's authority, exercise revolutionary control,
activate the popular conferences, rationalize the popular commit-
tees and the secretariats of the popular conferences, protect the
revolution, and defend and propagate the revolution.
[Correspondent] At the end of this interview, what has the brother
commander to say to the masses of our revolutionary people?
[AI-Qadhdhafi] We congratulate them and congratulate the
Armed Forces, the land, naval and Air Forces, for responding to
the call we made and for responding to the call of the Sudanese
people, and joining ranks with the people in the decisive moments,
instead of allowing themselves to become tools of repression and
suppression against the people. This is a patriotic stand which we
record for brother General `Abd al-Rahman Siwar al-Dhahab
and his colleagues, who saved Sudan from any problems which
could have resulted from confrontation between the Army and
the people under the plan drawn by Numayri, Mubarak, Amer-
ica, and the Israelis.
We cannot deny the struggle of the parties and their legacy
should be respected. Although, in fact, parties have become now
traditional and the era of parties has passed with the advent of
the age of the masses. I ask the parties to develop themselves now
and to respond to the new demands of the new revolutionary
force.
I hope there will be a democratic solution for the Sudanese
people's problems on the basis of the Green Book or the third
universal theory. In fact, this is the solution, not because I am
the author of this theory which in fact was not formulated by me
but by mankind throughout its long history and bitter struggle
for deliverance and emancipation. The Green Book is only a
guide for the people in their long historic struggle for emancipa-
tion. It is the result of the struggle of the peoples and the fruit of
their efforts and struggle throughout the ages as they tried to find
a radical solution for political and economic problems. As a result
of my study of history, I came up with these solutions for political
and social problems. I place them now at the service of the
Sudanese people, the fraternal heroic people.
In any case, the Sudanese people have brought honor to the Arab
nation because they rebelled against subservience and blew a
raspberry to America and chanted against it in the streets. Such
slogans were raised in the streets of the Arab countries and the
streets of Cairo but the name of America was mutilated in the
streets of Sudan.
In spite of famine and thirst, the Sudanese people clung to their
pride in an unparalleled manner. They upheld their right to be
worthy of living under the sun and on earth and to reject
dictatorship. Even Numayri, whom they had supported, was
toppled after he deviated and disgraced the Sudanese people and
encroached on them.
The Sudanese people were motivated not only by famine but also
by their pride and glory. This is because the Sudanese people are
in fact a great people. They abjectly defeated the British. We
hope the revolution of the Sudanese people will move into Egypt
and to other Arab countries. The Sudanese people must take the
initiative and raise the flag of the new revolution in the Nile
Valley. Thus, the Jamahiri system will triumph in the Nile Valley
so that the darkness of dictatorship will fade and the night of
dictatorship, subservience, and agentry will be over. They should
instigate this region against America, the bitter archenemy of
the Arab nation.
The Sudanese people must now ensure that their land shall be
hot under the feet of the Americans - the filthy feet of the bitter
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V. 22 Apr 85 Q 9
American enemies. This is because America is trying now to
enter through the window. With cheek and insolence, the Egyp-
tian regime is trying to woo the Sudanese. The Sudanese people
are good people and the Egyptian regime might succeed in
deceiving them. But they must not be deceived. They must
continue their stubborn confrontation of the symbols of agentry
and apostasy, and must appreciate the patriotic stand of Siwar
al-Dhahab and his colleagues and all the Sudanese Army, which
joined the people.
In any case, even if the military handed over authority, we must
hold them in high esteem. I personally appreciate their position
and I will never forget what they have done. I feel very proud of
the Sudanese people.
Delegation To Discuss Debt Rescheduling in Paris
AB220825 Nouakchott Domestic Service in French 0700 GMT
22 Apr 85
[Text] A delegation led by Lieutenant Colonel Anna Amadou
Babali, CMSN member and minister of finance and commerce,
and including Tarkhit Ould Sidi, minister of planning and terri-
torial development, yesterday left Nouakchott for Paris. In the
French capital, the delegation will hold meetings with the Paris
Club concerning the rescheduling of our country's external debt.
God willing, Sudan and Libya will merge together in one Arab
unity and we shall succeed in liberating the Nile Valley and
Palestine and in creating one Arab strong advanced liberated
nation that extends from the ocean to the Gulf and live under the
banners of glory and dignity and pride. Then we can blow a
raspberry for America.
Sudanese Military Council Members Arrive
LD211319 Tripoli Domestic Service in Arabic 1230 GMT
21 Apr 85
[Text] Brigadier General (Fadlallah Burmah Nasir) and
Brigadier General Faris `Abdallah Husni, members of the Tran-
sitional Military Council of Sudan, accompanied by Lieutenant
Colonel Ismail al-Hajj Yusuf and `Abd al-Hamid [as received]
Bashir al-Ahmadi, Sudan's former ambassador to Libya, arrived
today in Libya for a visit to the Socialist People's Libyan Arab
Jamahiriyah. Major al-Khuwayidi al-Humaydi met the Suda-
nese delegation at Tripoli International Airport.
Brigadier (Fadlallah Burmah Nasir) made a statement to the
JANA correspondent saying: We are extremely happy to come
to our second home, the Jamahiriyah; it is one of our desires: the
desire of the Sudanese people who are linked with the one hope
and the one destiny with their fraternal people, the Libyan Arab
people.
Received by Al-Qadhdhafi
LD212355 Tripoli Voice of Greater Arab Homeland
in Arabic 2315 GMT 21 Apr 85
[Text] The brother leader of the revolution last night [21 April]
received Brigadier General Fadlallah Burnah Nasir and
Brigadier General Faris `Abdallah Husni, members of the Tran-
sitional Military Council [TMC] of Sudan, accompanied by
Lieutenant Colonel Ismail al-Hajj Yusuf and brother `Abd
al-Majid Bashir al-Ahmadi, the former Sudanese ambassador to
the Jamahiriyah.
The Sudanese delegation conveyed a message to the brother
leader of the revolution from General `Abd a]-Raham Siwar
al-Dhahab, head of the Sudanese TMC.
MOROCCO
Further Reportage on Working Visit of CAR President
Received by King Hassan
LD191533 Rabat MAP in English 1200 GMT 19 Apr 85
[Text] Marrakech, April 19 (MAP) - General Andre Dieudonnc
Kolingba, president of the Central African Republic, was
received here Thursday by King Hassan II of Morocco.
The two heads of states held a private meeting before presiding
over a working session that was attended on the Moroccan side
by the prime minister, the minister of finance, the minister of
tourism, the minister of national education and acting minister
of foreign affairs, the minister of the interior, and the minister of
agriculture and agrarian reform.
On the Central African Republic side, the working session was
attended by the minister of state for rural development, the
minister of foreign affairs and international cooperation, the
minister of the interior, and the commissioner for tourism.
According to observer, talks would have dealt with bilateral
cooperation in the areas of defense, agriculture, tourism and
particularly commerce, the volume of exchanges between the two
countries having reached only 2.33 millions of French francs.
Mr Kolingba was also the guest to a luncheon banquet hosted in
his honor by the Moroccan monarch. The head of state of the
Central African Republic arrived here wednesday for a "work
and friendship visit" to Morocco.
Concludes Visit, Departs
LD201326 Rabat MAP in English 1200 GMT 20 Apr 85
[Text] Marrakech, April 20 (MAP) - General Andre-Dieudonne
Kolingba, president of the Central African Republic, has left
Marrakech this morning for Bangui after a two day "working
and friendship" visit to Morocco.
During his stay, General Kolingba held a private meeting with
King Hassan 11 and presided over, along with the Morrocan
monarch, a working session that was attended by the two coun-
tries delegations. This working session was devoted to examining
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