AL-SAFIR INTERVIEWS AL-QADHDHAFI, PART TWO

• Document Type: CREST
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): CIA-RDP05-01559R000400390060-7
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: K
• Document Page Count: 8
• Document Creation Date: December 22, 2016
• Document Release Date: January 31, 2012
• Sequence Number: 60
• Publication Date: March 21, 1985
• Content Type: OPEN SOURCE

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Communique Issued on Senegalese Minister's Visit
LD281412 Algiers APS in English 1126 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Algiers, 28-3-85 (APS) - An Algero-Senegalese press
communique was issued on Thursday after the visit official the
Senegalese Minister of Interior Ibrahimi Wone paid to Algeria
from March 24 to 29. The communique notably notes that "after
the talks the two delegations had, and which were characterized
by confidence and fraternity, the two sides restated their com-
mittment to work together for the reinforcement and intensifica-
tion of exchanges at all levels between their ministries in order
to contribute in the strengthening of the fraternity links between
the two countries and the reinforcement of cooperation between
the two brother peoples."
As a conclusion the communique points out that "it was agreed
to increase the .exchange of delegations and contacts between
elected and administrative officials in order to exchange their
mutual experiences in the field of administration, management,
decentralization, development and training."
Further Reportage on British Expulsion Anniversary
Bath Party Delegation Arrives
JN281 110 Damascus Domestic Service in Arabic 1015 GMT
28 Mar 85
[Text] An Arab Socialist Bath Party delegation led by Comrade
Mit'ib Shinan, member of the Bath Party National Command,
arrived in Tripoli yesterday evening. In a statement on arrival,
Comrade Shinan said that the delegation is visiting Libya to
participate with the fraternal Libyan people in their celebration
of the 15th anniversary of the expulsion of British bases from
Libyan territory. He asserted in this regard that any rev-
olutionary victory on any spot in the Arab homeland is a victory
for Syria and the entire Arab nation.
Celebrations in Tobruk
LD281622 Tripoli Domestic Service in Arabic 1330 GMT
28 Mar 85
[Excerpts] Today the Libyan Arab people celebrate the 15th
anniversary of the expulsion of the British colonialist bases which
desecrated the Libyan Arab land, protected the agent royalist
regime, and dealt blows to the Arab nation. Celebrations and
festivals continue today in the various municipalities to mark this
historic victory achieved thanks to the Great Al-Fateh Rev-
olution and its leader. This morning squadrons of the Libyan
Arab Air Force from the various military bases gave large-scale
air displays, flying in brilliant formation in the skies of our
country, with pride, challenge, and confidence.
Tobruk witnessed a large popular celebration this morning to
mark this anniversary. At the Jamal `Abd al-Nasir Air Base, a
military parade for the units of the vanguards of the armed people
and an air display by the Libyan Arab Air Eagles were held.
Many speeches were made saluting the Great Al-Fateh Rev-
olution which had achieved the evacuation and handed over
authority, wealth, and arms to the Libyan Arab people who took
control of its land.
They also praised the giant civil and revolutionary achievements
of the Great AL-Fateh Revolution and confirmed their eternal
adherence to the eternal thesis of the Green Book in its three
volumes. The big popular celebration was attended by masses of
the basic popular congresses, popular committees, and the voca-
tional congresses in Tobruk.
AL-SAFIR Interviews Al-Qadhdhafi, Part Two
PM281301 Beirut AL-SAFIR in Arabic 21 Mar 85 pp 8,9
[Part two of interview iven to AL-SAFIR by Libyan Leader
Mu'ammar al adilRhafi nducted by Talal Salman with the 16"
participation o Muhammad Mashmushi, Sa'd Mahyu, Hassan
Haydar, and Yasir Ni'mah "in Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi's tent
in Libya;" date not given]
[Excerpts] This part of the long interview with 1 September
Revolution leader Colonel Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi began with
a discussion about the heroic national resistance movement in
southern lebanon and the strong blows it is dealing to the Israeli
enemy. In this regard Al-Qadhdhafi expressed high admiration
and appreciation for the men who are pursuing the enemy
everywhere and daily inflicting heavy losses on his forces.
The discussion then moved to the question of the Iranian rev-
olution, of sectarianism in the area and in Lebanon, and of the
dangers threatening Arab nationalism as a consequence.
There is a real danger to Arab nationalism because of sectarian-
ism. To be fair, it must be said that the Iranian revolution has
kindled sectarianism in the Arab homeland despite itself; it was
not even its decision to do so. We, of course, support it because
it is a revolution, but it must be said that it has kindled sectarian-
ism in the Arab homeland. Unfortuantely the Arab nation could
be dismembered because of sectarianism. First it would be
divided into Muslims and Christians; the Christians in Lebanon,
Iraq, and Syria will be thinking of a Christian state. The Phalan-
gists now consider themselves the expression, the pioneers of
Christianity in the Arab east.
Then the Muslims will begin to be divided into Shiites and
Sunnis. The Arab nation from the Mediterranean - from Leba-
non - to the Gulf would become split. After that the Shiites and
the Sunnis will be subdivided into creeds; the Shiites between
the lthna'ashariyah [followers of the 12th lmam]creed and other
creeds, and the Sunnis into Hanafi, Shafi'i Hanbali, Maliki and
other creeds.
I do not mean that we are going to do this, but some other people
will try if they can. This is the scheme. The Iranian revolution
has encouraged the Shiites in the Arab homeland, who have
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The proposal called for "sytematic financial aid" to SWAPO to
give fresh impetus to its struggle for justice and freedom, and
"economic sanctions" capable of isolating the South African
regime, and obliging it to withdraw from Namibian territory.
Interparliamentary Conference Delegates Meet Togolese
DPRK Group Meets Eyadema
AB281630 Lome Domestic Service in French 1230 GMT
28 Mar 85
These proposals - the first one made by the Secretary General
of the Antiapartheid Trade Unions, Gilbert Pongault - and the
second by the PLO representative in Brazzaville, Abu Zir Salah,
were approved by several participants. The participants under-
lined the need to apply rigorous sanctions against countries,
companies and other institutions maintaining economic, com-
mercial and military relations with the Pretoria regime.
According to Mr Pongault, "systematic financial aid" to
SWAPO would come from deductions from African state bud-
gets in particular. These deductions could eventually be made
from the budgets of other countries, if the idea is accepted by
various governments.
The economic sanctions would comprise embargoes, a ban on
trade and cultural exchange, as well as all forms of trafficking,
especially arms trafficking.
The meeting, which had begun under the theme "observations"
between the various delegations from several regions in the world,
was characterized at certain moments by debates that were
sometimes heated and direct, or sometimes defensive.
The Zambian, Tanzanian, Zimbabwean and Egyptian delegates
firmly called on the United States, Great Britain, France and
West Germany to put an end to their association and collusion
with South Africa, because it is on account of their logistic
support that the Pretoria government refuses to apply UN Secu-
rity Council Resolution 435 on Namibian independence. Refut-
ing this accusation, Mr Lagorce, delegate of the French
(Socialist) Parliament, said that France stopped the sale and
delivery of arms to South Africa since the arrival of the Socialist
government in 1981.Other participants expressed similar views,
and showed their firm desire to oblige the racist South African
Government to abandon its illegal occupation of the South-West
African territory.
On Wednesday the participants were expected to examine obsta-
cles being put in the way of the implementation of the UN plan.
This plan is defined in Resolution 435 which was adopted on 29
September 1978. It recommends a cease-fire, and the holding of
free elections on Namibian territory under UN auspices. The aim
of this seminar is to seek solutions likely to hasten the self-
determination procedure for the Namibian people. It should be
noted that a report on the conclusions and recommendations on
these issues will be presented to the 40th session of the UN
General Assembly.
[Excerpt] General Gnassingbe Eyadema this morning at the
Presidential Palace in Lome received a Korean delegation of four
led by Mrs Yo Yong-ku, vice chairman of the Korean Supreme
People's Assembly. The delegation also included His Excellency
Kim Hyong-sam, Korean ambassador to Togo. The Korean
delegation, which is in Lome within the framework of the 73d
interparliamentary conference, went to deliver a message from
President Kim II-song to the head of state, Gen Gnassingbe
Eyadema. Following the audience, the leader of the delegation
spoke to reporters. Mrs Yo expressed in particular the pride of
her delegation for being received by Gen Eyadema.
Eyadema Receives Sudanese
JN281120 Khartoum SUNA in English 0915 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Lome, Rajab 6/Mar 23 (SUNA) - President of Togo
Gnassingbe Eyadema yesterday received a message from
Numayri on strengthening bilateral relations. The message was
delivered by House Speaker `Izz al-Din al-Sayyid. In a press
statement following the meeting, Al-Sayyid said that he had
discussed with the president African issues and parliamentary
cooperation between Sudan and Togo.
The president of Togo gave `Izz al-Din a message to president
Numayri in which he extended to him an invitation to visit Togo.
On the other hand, Sudan delegation at the 73rd conference of
Interparliamentary Union here managed to enlist in the con-
ference agenda the question of drought and famine in Africa and
its impact on Sudan. It is understood that Al-Sayyid chairs the
Interparliamentary Union.
Israelis Meet Minister
TA281355 Jerusalem Domestic Service in Hebrew 1300 GMT
28 Mar 85
[Text] The Knesset Delegation to the Interparliamentary Union
conference in the capital of Togo met this morning with the
minister of rural planning [title as heard], one of the Togolese
president's confidants. Our Paris correspondent Rafi Matar
reports that, after the talk, the minister said that within a few
days he intends to send three people to Israel for further educa-
tion.
Knesset Member Simha Dinitz said that, in his view, there is a
greater openness toward Israel in Africa and there are reserva-
tions about Arab pressure.
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regarded its uprising as a revolution in the name of Islam; not
against the Sunnis but against reaction and against the United
States. But some have been encouraged to advance under such
slogans [as published]. Lebanon is now divided. The credit for
struggle there, of course, goes to the Shiites and to Nabih Birri.
Birri is in the resistance and in the liberation movement, although
he is against us.
Nabih Birri and his group do not meet with any Libyan, but I
still consider him the hero of the liberation of southern Lebanon,
and I consider the Shiites to be the liberators regardless of what
is said about the resistance. The Shiite proves his heroism when
he falls martyr. Nobody else except the Shiite would load a car
with explosives and blow it up himself. In fact it was the Iranian
revolution that kindled this sense in the Shiites. The resistance
of the other Arabs and the Lebanese is weak. This is clear. This
is Nabih Birri. There may be a Hezbollah party, but the fact is
that they are all Shiites.
Answer: Maybe, but I know that the advocation of extremism
and suicide operations belongs to the Shiites. We do not deny
this. Nabih Birri is a hero, and so are other leaders such as
Al-Musawi.
Question: We have previously discussed with you the question
of Islam, Christianity, and Arabism. It is known that there is a
theory which says that every religion is handed down to a
particular nation and that the religion of the Arabs is Islam.
There is an objection to this theory among both Christians and
Muslims, who consider this a denial of the Arabism of Christians.
These people were Christians before Islam and when Islam came
they continued with their religion. They are Arabs, and their
national identity is established before and since Islam.
It was observed that in your recent speech you dealt with this
issue from a more nationalistic angle, if I may say so. Is what we
have understood correct?
Answer: Allow me to read you a message from the Green Book
on this subject.
Obviously the national factor or the social factor means that we
the Arabs are one single community, one single nation. Which
means that we have a nationality that binds us together; the fact
that we are Arabs binds us together socially. If a foreign commu-
nity tries to interfere, then we will resist it. This is conflict in
history: one nationality trying to dominate another and one
community trying to dominate another.
Why are the Kurds fighting? Because other nationalities have
dominated them for many years. They are an independent Kur-
dish nation; they do not enjoy autonomy either in Iraq, or in Iran,
or in Turkey. This is a principled stand. The Kurds must be a
Kurdish nation in that area, and that nation should be a sister to
the Arab nation, the Turkish nation, and the Persian nation, and
should take its place equally among those nations.
What happens from time to time and what disrupts a community
is the religious factor. Communities in one single nation embrace
a
different religions, as is the case in Lebanon, where the conflict
seems to be Christian-Muslim although in fact we are all Arabs.
There is a danger when one single community does not embrace
one single religion. A single community should embrace one
religion so that harmony will prevail and so that nationalism and
religion are two sides of the same coin.
In fact every nation has a prophet and a holy book. It is clear even
in .the Koran that no nation has two different prophets and no
nation has two holy books. To every nation there is a religion and
to every nation there is a law. This is clear.
Jesus was a prophet sent only to the Israelites in order to rectify
the laws of the Jewish Moses, but the Jews rejected him, that is,
they rejected the rectification. They said: We do not believe in
you. Just as the pagan Arabs rejected Muhammad and said to
him: We do not believe in you. The Israelites rejected Jesus and
wanted to crucify him. They did not kill him or crucify him but
imagined that they did; they believed that they crucified Jesus.
When Jesus was expelled by the Israelites who rejected his call,
the call was automatically directed toward another nation. It was
received by the Roman state that ruled the Arab east then.
And from the Roman state which ruled Palestine Christianity
spread abroad and across Europe. Some of the Arab commu-
nities, which were small in number, embraced Christianity. The
matter probably involved one tribal chieftain or more, and then
this religion became that of his descendants by inheritance.
Thus some of the Arabs embraced the religion which the
Israelites rejected and so became Christians. Then came Islam.
By Islam we mean the Koran and not those yellow, subjective
books. ,
In fact the Koran is an inspiration from God. It does not allow
an Arab to belong to any religion other than Muhammad's. The
Prophet was not tolerant toward non-Muslim Arabs; he was
tolerant toward the other, non-Arab nations that are not Mus-
lims.
The Arabs did the contrary; they left some Arabs to continue to
belong to non-Muslim religions while they forced 'non-Arab
nations to'embrace Islam. This has caused a disaster for us. They
were never supposed to conquer Persia or enter China, the Sind,
India, or Andalucia. This is the result now: After 800 years in
Andalucia there is not one single Muslim. In fact this was
colonialism.
What is the reason for the present problem in Lebanon? The
reason is that we are all Arabs there but some of us are Christians
and some are Muslims. Take the example of the Ethiopian
Falasha Jews; because their religion is different from that of the
Ethiopians they have forged ties with the Israelis and the Jewish
state. If there were Arab Jews the situation would have been the
same, and they would have gone to worship in the promised land.
Had the Maronites embraced Islam there would have been no
problem now and there would have been no fifth column.
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This is in fact the origin of the ties between the Israelis and the
Phalangists. In the final analysis Christianity is the religion of
Jesus, who is the prophet of the children of Israel. This is an
unnatural situation because the Christians of Lebanon are sup-
posed to be Arabs but, because their religion is not Arab, that is
it is not Muslim, they have been exploited by Zionism, which
exploits Judaism, and by the Crusade which exploits Christianity
when in fact Christianity has nothing to do with the Crusade.
Thus Crusade and Zionism are two political movements that
have exploited these two religions.
Zionism is the nationalist movement of the Jews; it is in fact a
political movement that has exploited the Jews and placed them
in this incinerator. They are now suffering daily. They do not feel
safe in their homes or schools, on the land or in the air. Whatever
is said about the Israelis being strong and able to defeat the Arab
armies, they live in fear. It is Zionism that has put them in this
hell.
There are groups in occupied- Palestine which do not believe in
this. They say that they are religious groups who worship God in
any place. They say: We have a temple in Jerusalem in which
we worship, but why should we fight the Arabs and other
peoples?
Question: In other words we can say that the religious factor
can create an empire while the national factor creates a national
state, which means that the universality of a religion is the
political expression of an empire, but when the empire is disman-
tled into nationalities each nationality sets up its own state and
so the empire ends.
Answer: Prophecy has nothing to do with politics or the state.
The Islamic state that was set up was created by those who came
after the Prophet. This was a civil, subjective authority and was
not holy because it was the creation of an ordinary person and
because the Prophet had no deputies. The question of religion has
nothing to do with politics. Religion in the first place is believing
in the supernatural; it is belief in God, in the day of reckoning,
and so on. In order to achieve this there is a set of orders and
basics that constitute human moral values which are not political,
such as peace, fraternity, equality, justice, compassion, and
mercy. These human moral values are the ones which religions
talk about.
In fact when we deal with the supernatural and with morals there
is no connection whatever between them and politics. First of all
there is no morality in politics. Politicians lie to each other.
Maneuvering, cheating, and deception are examples. When we
deal with politics the supernatural becomes irrelevant. It is
impossible to deal with politics and compare these with the
supernatural. Therefore, the political factor and all that is related
to it is a subjective problem facing the human communities on
this planet - a problem which they have the right to resolve the
way they deem fit.
We here advocate the jamahiriyah system, the establishment of
the state of the masses, eradicating injustice and exploitation,
implementing the theory of the masses, and radically solving
political, social, and economic problems in accordance with a
democratic, revolutionary theory regardless of the religion
embraced by the masses. This has nothing to do with religion.
For example, a house belongs to whoever lives in it. The house in
which you live must belong to you; but you may not own another
house and rent it.
All the states that consist of several nationalities, for religious,
economic, military, or subjective ideological reasons, will be torn
by nationalist conflict until every nationality becomes indepen-
dent; that is, the social element will inevitably triumph over the
political element. For example, India, the Soviet Union, and
Yugoslavia will in the future be torn by nationalist conflict. In
other words, the nationalities will begin and in fact have begun
to emerge in Yugoslavia following Tito's death and are working
for independence.
Question: This means that you are reassuring us about the
future of Lebanon. It will not be torn apart since it consists of
one single nationality despite the difference in religion.
Answer: Yes, nationalism will in the end triumph in Lebanon.
The problem now is that one community of the same nationality
is embracing two religions.
Question: Had there not been a Maronite political movement,
the religious factor would not have existed.
Answer: But this grows only in ground that is fertile for its
growth. This political Maronite movement includes Christians
and Muslims. It has exploited the economic situation of both the
Christians and the Muslims and established itself as a political
movement. It has exploited this situation the same way Zionism
did with the question of who is or is not Jewish. It exploited this
issue and established itself as an independent political movement.
If there was not a similar situation in Lebanon the Maronite
political movement would not have existed in the first place.
Question: Our question now concerns the relation between the
state of the masses and the Third World theory on the one hand,
and the state in the Islamic concept on the other.
Answer: First of all I am not the author of the Green Book.
What I did was to compile axioms and incontrovertible princi-
ples; the book is the result of reading and researching history. It
is the sum total of what has happened. Why is one man happy
and another not? One is happy because he is free. What does
freedom mean? It means freedom from want.
The Green Book does not say that we should do this or that. I
have written a military book, for which I am responsible, but the
Green Book is not my responsibility; it is the responsibility of
human heritage. From my viewpoint the Green Book sees the
chronic problem in the problem of democracy, of power, and of
economic difficulties. This is the cause of conflict in the world.
Question: Where does the United States figure in this sit-
uation?
Answer: We have sown the seeds of fragmentation there by
awakening the blacks and the red Indians. In the distant future
the United States could fragment and become small states. Those
of French origin will establish a state and those of Saxon origin
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will establish a state of their own. The blacks and the red Indians
have begun moving. I have told them that they should become
independent. This is their objective now, but they cannot say that
they want to fragment the United States; rather they want their
rights. There are black communities and states with black major-
ities, and there are companies especially for the blacks. What
does this mean'? Clearly it is feeling one's way to independence.
Question: Are those sufficient grounds for the establishment of
a state?
Answer: The black color in this case is an expression of a
nationality; black means Africans. The colors divide the world
into races: yellow, white, and black. This was the case when
Asia once dominated the world. It is known that immigration of
the yellow race, which formed the populations of Hungary and
the Serb countries, originated in Asia. This was followed by the
domination of the white race, the era of Western colonialism.
There were conflicts between Italy, France, the Netherlands, and
Portugal over the colonies, but they all belonged to the white race.
Despite the conflict the white race dominated the world and
colonized it in its entirety. We now expect the blacks to have their
turn. The blacks, as the Green Booksays, will dominate the world.
First of all they are increasing in large numbers. But despite the
problems that this growth in number creates, such as poverty,
this is bound to happen in the future. The Africans, that is the
blacks, are not affected by the modern systems; they procreate
in communal marriages.
This race will grow in number and I believe that civilization,
industrial progress, war, and nuclear power will weaken the
present dominant white race. There will come a stage in which
this race will be exhausted. The "Green" movement and the
"hippies" are factors of exhaustion and fragmentation of the
white communities.
We believe that the black march is on the rise through the black
communities in Europe and the United States. This will happen
even after 100 years, which is a short time in history and for the
races. After a few hundred years - maybe 2,000 or 3,000 years
- we will find that the color of the world is black. In the white
world there is birth control while in the black world there is
increasing population. Within every race there are religions,
nationalities and interests. We Arabs could be included in the
yellow race, an extension of the yellow race. We came from Asia,
from the Arabian Peninsula, but the Arabian Peninsula inhabi-
tants probably came from China. Now Vietnam and China are
fighting, despite the fact that they are from the yellow race which
once dominated the world before it was replaced by the white
race.
The greater the population, the more the need for jamahiriyah,
because a group of individuals in Beijing or Delhi cannot control
a billion people. The masses solve their own problems and form
executive and legislative authorities through the people's con-
gresses. The masses get together in people's congress, elect
people's committees, and run their affairs. They ultimately all
meet at national level. It is just impossible to have just one
government or, say, one education minister in India or one health
minister in China. There is more need for jamahiriyah there than
in Libya.
That should also be the solution in Lebanon. There is a struggle
for power there, as to who should rule. Should it be the Phalan-
gists, the Nationalist Forces, one particular sect, the Muslims or
the Christians? The struggle for power is continuous and comes
to the surface every now and then. Armed conflict occurs periodi-
cally as in 1958, 1975, and 1982. Any solution achieved now will
be farcical, and we would expect the struggle for power to be
renewed in 10 years time. It will not end unless a radical solution
is found. That solution is the jamahiriyah system.
When we meet in a people's congress we do so as equals, not as
employer and employees, because it would be false democracy if
the employer said yes to something without you being free to say
no because you feared that, with him, for example, as the
landlord and you as the tenant, you would be jeopardizing your
relations with him, which are based on exploitation. He could put
up the rent, evict you from the apartment, or exert any kind of
pressure on you. That deprives you of your freedom. Freedom is
what matters. To be your own master and to express your opinion
freely in the congress and determine your own fate, you should
be free. How'? By having your needs freely fulfilled. That would
eliminate the pressures and restrictions. What are your needs?
Your home must be your own, hence the slogan "a house belongs
to whoever lives in it." A home is looked after by its occupants.
A car belongs to the person who drives it, and the land belongs
to all. Everyone is a partner, no one is a hired hand. There is no
longer such a thing as a person working for someone else.
Everyone is entitled to his product. So the main problem has been
solved and real democracy has been established in its economic
sense.
That leaves the question of arms. Firearms are like revolution
and authority. Whoever has them can use them as a means of
controlling others. Army soldiers are in fact unjustly treated
because they have to die on behalf of the civilian population.
There should be no delegation in death. The homeland belongs
to all and its defense is everyone's responsibility, especially when
it is shared'equally by everyone. Everyone defends his home,
products, land, and car. Wealth is no longer in the hands of
exploiting feudalists for whom we are supposed to die. That
makes training compulsory for everyone and it marks the end of
the regular army which could stage coups d'etat or become
repressive. The members of the regular army really get a rough
deal because they have to die for us. If there must be death, then
all are equal even in that respect. The arms belong to everyone
but that does not mean that everyone should carry arms, as in
Chad or Lebanon. Arms should be stored under guard. One
sector of the.population trains on tanks, another on machineguns,
a third on aircraft, and so on., In times of war everyone proceeds
to his weapon in an orderly manner. Even the guarding of arms
should be taken in turns. In times of war we take up arms to fight.
All the people fight. In times of peace we train periodically. That,
to a large extent, is what is happening in Switzerland now. There
is general military training. Everyone knows when he is due for
training.
These are the problems which man faces. When these problems
are solved successively, we then have a jamahiriyah. After that,
whether you believe in God or not becomes a personal matter.
We do not come and say: let there be an Islamic state, and we
do not arrange everything after the example or on the basis of
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Islam. The truth is that, if we involved religion in politics, society
would achieve no progress.
Answer: We now have people's congresses and people's com-
mittees everywhere. The problem of wealth has been solved.
There is no such thing as a Libyan employer or'hired hand any
more. There are no rented homes or cars. The Army is engaged
in training the people after dividing them into sectors. Once all
the people are capable of carrying arms, the regular Army will
disappear. It is now beginning to disappear gradually with the
people replacing it. We now rely more on battalions of armed
people than on Army battalions. In the future the public will be
the Army. In other words it will be possible for 50,000 people to
be under arms every week or month, and they could then be
replaced by another ready force of 50,000. When war breaks out
the entire population takes up arms, each one defending his own
area with the Jamahiriyah divided into defense areas capable of
repulsing aggression. An armed population cannot be defeated.
In Lebanon there are now many signs of the jamahiriyah system
we are talking about. An armed population cannot be defeated.
If there was a strong regular army and a strong government in
Lebanon, the Israelis would not have left it without imposing very
humiliating terms similar to the stable David (Camp David)
terms. They are now, for the first time, leaving unconditionally.
Any terms they tried to dictate to the Lebanese Government were
defeated by the people because the people are free'and there is
no government to prevent them from fighting. Everyone took up
arms and went to the south. That situation provides the evidence
that armed people cannot be defeated. If the Arab nation were
to get rid of the governments and regular armies, no power on
earth would be able to defeat it. The United States cannot throw
itself into a sea of ants, each one nibbling at it from one side or
another. Look at Lebanon, the smallest and weakest Arab state
- I am referring to the population size. Without government or
army the people themselves took the initiative, resisted, and
managed to defeat the Israeli war machine. The Israelis are
withdrawing in horror. The countries with strong armies and
governments, such as Egypt, indulge in bargaining.
Question: There are some observations regarding a number of
issues. The first is that in your speech to the General People's
Congress you repeated something which you said before but
which never materialized, namely that Libya is open to all the
Arabs and that Libya is the state of all the Arabs. We were bitten
in the past. You say something and the airport passport officers
do exactly the opposite. It reached a point where we sometimes
wished that you would not declare Libya open to all the Arabs,
lest more insults were hurled at them at the airport. Is there any
real possibility of checking this regional trend in Libya, especially
in dealing with the Arabs?
Answer (laughing): This is similar to the case of the prisoner
who was granted amnesty. When the guards heard about it they
got hold of him and started beating him up, minutes before he
was due to leave prison. When they hear that the Arabs are to be
allowed into Libya, they like to use the remaining hours to wreak
vengeance on them at the airport. I will go to the airport myself.
In the past I have sent some members of the revolutionary force
to the airport to observe. They advised that certain measures
should be taken but, no, we will go to the airport and all Arab
citizens will be allowed in with just their identity cards (a decision
to that effect was later issued and announced by the media).
Question: A small point for discussion. Recently, regulations
have been tightened regarding the transfer of money, residence,
exit, and reentry. In the past year permits were given for the
transfer of only 30 percent of salary. So, in practical terms, no
Arab is enthusiastic about working in Libya because the money
he is allowed to transfer is much less than he gets in his own
country.
Answer: Even Libya has a hard currency problem because that
affects its reserves considerably. There is also a problem regard-
ing a person who comes to work, saves money, and transfers it to
his country.
The United States, for example, accepts thousands of immigrants
annually from all over the world, especially Latin America, but
those who go to the United States, unlike those who come to
Libya, become American citizens as soon as they enter the
country. They do not say: We will work here for you, save some
hard currency, and then take it out with us, or we will work here
for you and then go back to our respective countries. Some 10,000
Egyptian experts emigrated to the United States after 1967. 1
have met one of them. He told me: We have become
Americans.
That is how I want the Arabs to come to Libya. I want them to
say: We want to stay, and I want to bring their children and
families to stay here, because it is difficult when someone just
wants to work and transfer money abroad. There is a delicate
balance, in other words. As regards foreign countries - Bul-
garia, for example - companies come in accordance with con-
tracts. The Arabs come individually, but the law applies to all.
Question: Why should not the number of foreigners be reduced
and the number of Arabs increased?
Answer: At present there are more Arabs than foreigners. Most
of them are Egyptian.
Question: Has production increased since the implementation
of the "partners, not hired hands" slogan?
Answer: That slogan has not been completely generalized yet.
The experiment has been introduced in some factories. When it
is generalized and when the workers really become partners in
production, we will then be able to answer that question. We have
found an answer to the question of incentives because, so long as
we get a share of the production and not money, then the more
effort we make, the bigger share we get, and vice versa. The
application of this slogan would certainly lead to more produc-
tion.
Question: We sometimes hear you criticizing and blaming the
Libyans for not being sufficiently productive. Has the practical
implementian of the measures or arrangements stemming from
your theory motivated the Libyans as producers, and has it made
them more productive and eager to work and produce?
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Answer: Yes, I can see that the country is moving along the
road of production, and we observe and motivate. Much work is
being done by the revolutionary committees and the people's
committees. We are really moving forward on the production
road. An observer would see that areas of the army camps are
cattle and poultry farms producing meat, milk, eggs, and vegeta-
bles. There is competition between the various camps as to which
one is more productive and self-sufficient.
Army Commander Meets PDRY Defense Minister
LD281436 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 1815 GMT 27 Mar 85
[Text] Tripoli 27 Mar (JANA) - A meeting took place today
between Brigadier Abu Bakr Yunis Jabir, commander in chief
of the Libyan Arab Armed Forces, and Brigadier Salih Muslih
Qasim, member of the Political Bureau of the Socialist Party and
minister of defense in the Democratic Republic of Yemen.
The meeting was attended by a number of technicians from both
sides.
Somali Rebel Leader Arrives in Tripoli 27 March
LD282236 Tripoli JANA in Arabic 1915 GMT 27 Mar 85
[Excerpt] Tripoli, 27 Mar (JANA) - Colonel 'Abdallah Yusuf,
leader of the Democratic Front for Salvation in Somalia, arrived
in Tripoli this afternoon at the head of a front delegation to attend
the meeting of the Pan-Arab Command of the Revolutionary
Forces in the Arab Homeland.
MOROCCO
Further Reportage on Visit of Polish Official
Received by Prime Minister
LD281351 Rabat MAP in Arabic 1000 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Rabat 28 Mar (MAP) - The Moroccan Prime Minister
Mohamed Lamrani last night received in Rabat Mr Roman
Malinowski, chairman of the Polish United Peasant Party and
deputy chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Polish
Republic, who was accompanied by the Polish ambassador to
Morocco, Josef Klasa.
During this meeting the prime minister and the Polish guest
discussed the friendly relations between the two countries and
ways of developing and widening the bilateral cooperation. The
Moroccan prime minister praised Moroccan-Polish relations in
all fields and expressed his satisfaction with the level of cooper-
ation between the two countries.
The two sides also reviewed issues of mutual interest and issues
of the hour at the [words indistinct]
?
Saudi Foreign Minister Departs 28 March
LD281558 Rabat Domestic Service in Arabic 1500 GMT
28 Mar 85
[Text] His Royal Highness Saud al-Faysal, foreign minister of
Saudi Arabia, left Marrakech Manarah Airport today. He was
received last night by His Majesty King Hassan II and gave him
a personal message from his brother His Majesty King Fahd ibn
`Abd al-'Aziz, king of Saudi Arabia.
The Saudi foreign minister was seen off by Abdellatif Filali,
minister of foreign affairs and information; .'Ali al-Qabbani,
Saudi ambassador in Rabat; and Mustafa Tariq, his majesty's
governor of Marrakech Province.
SUDAN
Further Reportage on Khartoum Demonstrations
Arrest Warrants Issued
LD291042 Khartoum SUNA in French 0900 GMT 29 Mar 85
[Spellings of names as received]
[Text] Khartoum, 29 Mar (SUNA) - State security has issued
an arrest warrant for 17 members of the Muslim Brotherhoods
who have fled:
1. `Ali Osman Mohd Taha
2. Mahdi Ibrahim Mohd
3. Ibrahim al-Sanosi
4. Dr al-Taj Fadelalla
5. Dr `Ali al-l3aj
6. Fadelella al-Tom
7. Muhammad Taha Mohd Ahmad
8..Amin Benani Neo
9. Bashir Adam Rahmah
10. Amin Hassan Omar
I I . Al-Tigani 'Abd al-Ghadir
12. Khalid Hassan Ibrahim
13. Omar al-Amin Husayn
14. Muhammad Ahmad Tajir
15. Muhammed `Abdallah Jarel Nabi
16. Motasim `Abdallah
17. Muhammad Awad al-Baroud.
Security Communique Issued
JN281620 Khartoum SUNA in Arabic 1448 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Khartoum, 28 Mar (SUNA) - We have received the
following communique from the national capital's public security
department: Needless to say, the national capital has recently
been teeming with loafers, beggers, vagabonds, and persons of
unknown identities. This has prompted the National Security
Council to set up a higher committee to clear the national capital
of such people. The committee has seriously begun to tackle its
task. However, the humanitarian circumstances resulting from
the drought that has hit several parts of the country caused it to
temporarily suspend this task.
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On Tuesday morning, 26 March 1985, following the president's
decision against Muslim Brotherhood leaders who broke the
pledge they made before God, a group of students from the
Omdurman Islamic University staged a demonstration on Al-
Arba'in Street in Omdurman. Later, the demonstration proceed
to Al-Mawridah, where it was soon infiltrated by Muslim
Brotherhood elements. The public security forces immediately
dispersed the demonstration. However, vagabonds exploited the
situation and roamed the Omdurman bazaar and industrial zone
in small groups, carrying out several acts of arson and sabotage
for the purpose of looting. However, the security forces con-
fronted these vagabonds, arrested several of them, and took
control of the situation.
On Wednesday morning, 27 March 1985, some 150 students
from the Institute of Technology staged a demonstration through
`Abd al-Latif Street, University Street, and Al-Qasr Street.
Later, they gathered at Abu Janzir Square and (Al-'Aqrabi)
Market in Khartoum. The security forces dispersed the dem-
onstrators and detained a large number of them. Again vaga-
bonds exploited the situation and began hurling stones passersby
and carrying out acts of sabotage. They destroyed a large number
of private cars and smashed the windows of banks and stores.
They caused the death of a 1-year-old child, assaulted innocent
citizens, and set several gas stations on fire. The saboteurs
operated in scattered groups that immediately vanished upon the
arrival of the security forces. However, the security forces
arrested several of these vagabonds, who were caught redhanded
while looting stores. Summary courts were immediately set up
and began their work. The courts tried 300 vagabonds and issued
various sentences against them.
While reassuring the citizens that they are in full control of the
situation, the security forces announce that they will not hesitate
to deal firmly with anyone who tampers with the citizens' lives
and properties.
The security forces will soon resume their campaigns to clear the
national capital of all suspect elements that engage in sabotage
in order to protect the people and their resources. God grants
success.
Security Statement on Arrests
EA281651 Khartoum SUNA in English 1626 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Khartoum, Rajab 6, 28 Mar - Various jail terms have
been meted out to some 300 saboteurs who have caused untold
destruction to public and private properties Tuesday and
Wednesday in the national capital towns of Khartoum and
Omdurman, a security statement said today.
In the wake of President Numayri's decision to curb the Moslem
Brotherhood organization activities, a group of sympathetic stu-
dents from the Islamic university in Omdurman took into [as
received] one of the main streets to demonstrate. They were
joined by vagrants and vagabonds who, after marching in the
streets, went to the popular market shopping center and the
industrial area causing fires in some places and attempts to loot.
But the security forces dispersed them and brought the situation
under control, the national capital security statement announced.
On Tuesday in Khartoum, meanwhile, students in the Khartoum
polytechnic colleges also came out into the streets with the
anti-social elements in their midst and went about stoning pas-
sersby, breaking car shields and attacking some banks fronts and
the commercial center injuring many citizens and causing the
death of a year-old baby. An attempt they made to set fire to a
petrol station failed, the statement said.
The saboteurs were conducting their destructive work in the form
of pockets grouped here and there dispersing at the appearance
of security forces, the statement added. They were eventually
overcome by the security forces and a great number was arrested
and tried yesterday, it went on.
However, the statement assured the citizens and affirmed that
the situation is now firmly under control and said a measure to
empty the national capital from vagrants will soon be lanched.
University Examinations Suspended
EA281653 Khartoum SUNA in English 1630 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Khartoum, 28 Mar (SUNA) - The administration of
Cairo University in Khartoum today decided to suspend all
examinations of Cairo University in Khartoum indefinitely.
Embassy in Kuwait on Riots
LD281505 Kuwait KUNA in English 1430 GMT 28 Mar 85
[Text] Kuwait, March 28 (KUNA) - The Sudan Embassy here
Thursday confirmed reports of riots in Khartoum and its twin-
city Omdurman and the destruction of public and private prop-
erties but described the popular uprising as "riots and sabotage."
The statement said the police brought the situation under control
and that life returned to normal since last night in the two cities
which together group close to two million inhabitants.
The embassy statement telephoned to KUNA by Ambassador
Muhammad `Abd al-Fatah Babtout [spelling of name as
received] in the early afternoon conflicts with reports carried
Thursday by the international wire that violence erupted anew
in the two cities for the third day running today and that the
Army was called in to quell the uprising.
Babtout said that Secretariat of [words indistinct] party, the
Sudanese Socialist Union, whose offices were burnt down yester-
day by the demonstrators, has appealed to the citizens to "be
vigilant and protect public properties and foil the chance for the
peoples' enemies".
The statement said the demonstrations were started Tuesday by
some political elements led by the Muslim brothers, whom
Numayri kicked out of office three weeks ago, and were joined
by sympathizers but the situation was brought under control
Wednesday evening and the international airport was operating
normally Thursday.
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