DISCUSSION WITH SECRETARY RUSK AT LUNCH AT DCI RESIDENCE THIS DATE

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 16087546
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 2
• Document Creation Date: July 11, 2023
• Document Release Date: September 9, 2022
• Case Number: F-2015-01188
• Publication Date: September 3, 1963

Approved for Release: 2022/07/20 C06246226
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3 September 1963
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
SUBJECT: Discussion with Secretary Rusk at lunch at DCI residence
this date
1. Ball visit to Pakistan reviewed and Rusk agreed that it is more
important to preserve our assets in Pakistan than to insist upon
expansion of USA-60 as a condition precedent to continuing aid. DCI
agreed and. stated this understanding reached with Ball during Rusk's
absence. Rusk feels Ayub is seeking new connections with friends of
the United States. Present Pak Foreign Minister is in trouble and
probably will be removed which would be good because he is definitely not
friendly to the United States. Rusk was generally optimistic on the
outcome of the Ball-Ayub discussions.
2. Regarding South Viet Nam, stating he was not really in on
DepTel #243 but since the Telex was discussed with him on the telephone,
he assumed responsibility. He appeared critical of Hilsman and some-
what critical of Harriman. Agreed with me that we should. go slowly;
that there was no apparent acceptable successor to Diem. Rusk was
pleased that today's cable was toned down. Also agreed that Lodge had
been taken in by State Department advisors and lower echelon officers
and had probably gone too far too fast. He was most complimentary of
the reporting and the judgment of Carter, Helms and Colby in the
meetings of last week.
3. Rusk raised the question of Dunlop; felt this defection most
serious; believes NSA security must be improved; expressed surprise
that NSA did not have security procedures at least equal to CIA's.
Urged that DCI give consideration to a uniform security clearance
procedure for all personnel throughout the Intelligence Community.
Raised the question of desirability of tighter security procedures
within State, including the use of polygraph.
4.. Discussed the De Gaulle problem at considerable length.
Rusk ventured the opinion that De Gaulle would lose out and that the
ultimate strong trio in Free World defense would be Britain, U. S.
and West Germany. I questioned this because of De Gaulle's nuclear
development, indicating it would be formidable within 10 years.
Rusk felt that De Gaulle could offer no security to Western Europe
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Approved for Release: 2022/07/20 C06246226
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that would equal that offered by the U. S. I countered by stating
that Be Gaulle was not inhibited by U. S. policy or the McMahon
Act and therefore might easily resolve his problem by offering
special nuclear materials or weapons assistance to West Germany
or other countries. Rusk felt this not a probability, however he
did not fully discount the idea.
5. With regard to the future of South Viet Nam, Rusk raised
the question Of a possible split between Ho Chi Minh and Peking.
I was to explore the possibilities of an independent, unified Viet Nam
which would be neutral but free of ChiCom influence. This
apparently is a French idea and if it could be accomplished would
be a very stabilizing influence on all of Southeast Asia.
NOTE: I have discussed this with Helms who is
going to study prospects.
JAJVI/rnfb
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Approved for Release: 2022/07/20 C06246226