JFK DOCUMENT - TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 06673356
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 119
• Document Creation Date: July 13, 2023
• Document Release Date: August 25, 2022
• Case Number: F-2021-00652
• Publication Date: May 23, 1975

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Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY: MCFARLANE
RECORD NUMBER: 178-10004-10213
RECORD SERIES: MISCELLANEOUS
AGENCY FILE NUMBER: COLBY TESTIMONY BEFORE SSC, 5/23/75
Document Information
ORIGINATOR SSCIA
FROM:
TO:
TITLE: TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY MAY 23, 1975
DATE: 05/23/1975
PAGES: 118
SUBJECTS:
[Restricted]
DOCUMENT REQUEST, CHURCH COM
DULLES, ALLEN
EDWARDS, SHEFFIELD
EXECUTIVE ACTION CAPABILITY
FBI
GIANCANA, SAM
HARVEY, WILLIAM
HUNT, E. HOWARD
KENNEDY, ROBERT
LANSDALE, EDWARD
LAS VEGAS
LAW ENFORCEMENT, WIRETAPPING
MAHEU, ROBERT
OPERATION MONGOOSE
ORGANIZED CRIME
l'ROUTY, FLETCHER
ROSELLI, JOI-IN
s�rurwts, FRANK
TRAFFICANTE, SAM
WARREN COMMISSION, INFORMATION WITHHELD FROM
ZRR1FLE
CUBAN EXILES
CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THREE TRAMPS
COLBY, WILLIAM E.
CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS
CIA
CHURCH COMMITTEE
BRECKINRIDGE, SCOTT
BISSELL, RICHARD
ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS
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Approved for Release: 2022/06/27 C06673356 Date: 8/27/201
Identification Form
Agency Information
AGENCY: MCFARLANE
RECORD NUMBER: 178-10004-10213
RECORD SERIES:
AGENCY FILE NUMBER:
MISCELLANEOUS
COLBY TESTIMONY BEFORE SSC, 5/23/75
ORIGINATOR:
FROM:
TO:
SSC1A
Document Information
TITLE: TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975
DATE:
PAGES:
SUBJECTS :
DOCUMENT TYPE:
CLASSIFICATION :
RESTRICTIONS:
CURRENT STATUS:
DATE OF LAST REVIEW :
OPENING CRITERIA:
COMMENTS:
05/23/1975
118
ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES
AMLASH
CUBELA, ROLANDO
TESTIMONY
Top Secret
IC
Redact
08/10/1993
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TEsTinoN OF:. PAGE
William E. Colby,
'-- accompanied 3
Director, CIA,
by --
Scott S. Breckinridge, Jr.,
Deputy Inspector General,
Enno Enoch�,
Assistant to the Director,-
. George L. Cary, -
Legislative Counsel
EXHIBITS
NUMBER
ColbyPxhibit Nos. 1, 2, and 3, cardboard-backed
photographs, deemed marked in an off the record
discussion early in the transcript. .
Colby No.
Colby No. 5
Colby No. 6
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TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY,
DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
Friday, May 23, 1975
003.
United States Senate,
Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations with Respect to
Intelligence Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 9:15 o'clock
a.m., in Room 407, The Capitol Bonding, Senator Frank
.Church (Chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators Church (presiding), Hart of Michigan,
Mondale, Huddleston, Morgan, Hart of Colorado, Mathias and
SchwedkeL
Also present: William Miller, Staff Director, F.A.O.
Schwarz, III, Chief Counsel; Curtis R. Smothers, Minority
Counsel; William Bader, Professional Staff Member.
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n:?..aring win come to order.
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Mr: Scott Breckinridge is accompanying the Director this
3 morning and may be called upon from time to time to testify..
4 For that purpose, Mr. Breckinridge, will you please stand
and be sworn?
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6 Do you swear that all the testimony you may give. in this
proceeding will. be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
8 the truth, so 'help you God?
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Mr. Breckinridge. I do.
Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz will commence the questionin,
this morning.
Mr: Schwarz. Mr. Colby, did you have some things you
wanted to supply to. the Committee?
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LULUY, DIRECTOR, CIA,
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ACCOMPANIED DY SCOTT S. DRECKINRIDGE, .JR"� DEPUTY
INPSECTOR GENERAL, ENNO KNOCHE, ASSISTANT TO THE
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that
DIRECTOR, A;!D GEORGE L. CAR?, LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL
Mr. Colby. I have an answer to a few of the questions
were raised at the meeting the other day and there are a
couple of clarifications I would like to make.
One, with' respect to the security investigations in the
United States. The question Was asked Whether we ever used
private investigators, and I said we normally used our own
investigators. We have Some relationships with private
investigatory firms which provide cover for our investigators
and, secondly, we have a few firms which we owTt. which are
proprietary' if you will, whereby Our investigators appsar to
be private.
I said that in the past it is clear that on occasion we
did ask for pritiate investigator firms to help us to some .
degree. It was usually the one that was giving us cover, and
for reasons of overload we asked them to have their own people
to do a few of the investigations.
My General Counsel says that this is illegal. I .have a
strong question about its propriety', if not legality, and I �
am undertaking to review this matter to see whether we can not
just eliminate that practice entirely, continuing the prcprie-
tary and continuing the use
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private investigators as cover
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wi.0 want Co clarify that. I think \I mentioned it
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last time that there have been occasions on which this was
done.,
Chairman Church. Mr. Colby, would you in connection with
your review of this matter supply the Committee with the spe-
cifics in those cases where the Agency has in fact engaged
private investigators to do Agency work?
Mr. Colby. 'I will certainly try to, Mr. Chairman. I
confess this may be a tough job to locate every case but I
certainly will do my best.
Chairman Church. Will you provide the Committee with the
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opinion of your Counsel with respect to the legality of such?
Mr. Colby. I will.
Chairman Church. Such use of private investigators?
Mr. Colby. Yes.
Chairman Church. And then I would ask the staff also
furnish the Committee with a brief on that question so that we
are-fulfy advised with respect to the law.
Mr. Colby. Right.
The second subject, Mr. Chairman. Senator Mondale asked
for our command and control regulations for the approval of
.
covert action projects. These were supplied to the staff on
the first of May and are available to the staff.
Thirdly, I was .asked.if Mr. 'William Harvey was removed
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1 from the Agency because of his involvement in the assassination
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2 plans against Prime Minister Castro. .
3 The facts are-that in June 1963 he was assigned lirOti!
4 ggiga.,21Aggain Rome and in February of '67 he was .
5 reassigned to CIA Headquartcrs. He retired voluntarily undcr
6_ our retirement system on 31 of December 1967.
If I may, there is a reason why he was taken out and if I
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could go off the record and mention that to the Committee. It
is a matter of his privacy.
Chairman Church. Very well, off the record.
(Off the record discussion)
Mr. Colby. : Back on the record.
Senator Schweiker.asked me whether Howard Hunt or James
McCord ware in charge of Mexican operations at the time of
President Kenney'S-aSeasSination on 22nd of November '63.
Howard'Hunt from July '62 to August '64 was assigned as a
Section Chief in the Division of Plans Directorate, which is
now the Operations Directorate at CIA Headquarters, which had
�����
no responsibility whatsoever for Mexican operations.
Senator.Schweiker. What were those dates again?
Mr. Colby. July '62 to August '64.
Senator Schweiker. Wasn't he at some point in Mexico
City and in charge of that office?.
Mr. Knoche. Way back in the '50's he served in Mexico
'City. Way back. He was not in-charge.
-
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nr. Lokoy. nu was a case orrice" then.
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Senator Schweiker. So that is the period you are saying
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he" had no jurisdiction in any way with Latin America or Mexicar
Affairs.
Mr. Colby. No, he was in what we call, and we have since
6 changed the name, to Domestic Operations Division at that Lim-,
our operations here in this country, and that is a whole
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different subject I would have to explain some day.
Mr. McCord from June '62 to June '64 was assigned as a
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CIA Security Officer in
ermany
and he had no responsibilities for Mexican operations at that
point.
Senator Morgah last time asked what information was given
to the Warren Commission concerning Agency assassination plans
concerning. Castro, and I have been advised our records do not
. indicate that the Warren Commission was provided with informa-
tion on this Subject.
Allen Dulles, of course, I would note, who was the CIA
DiMetor until the fall of :61, was a member of the Warren
Commission, but beyond th et fact I have nothing I could offer.
And then who made the decision net to provide. it, if none
was given? Our records do not indicate that there was a CIA
decision on this matter not to tell the Warren Commission.
I could add that I believe the 'relationship with the
Warmest Commission was handled by one of our staf-CM-r'ch
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I cannot- say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation
system was such.
Chairman Chufch. What was the name of the CIA agent who
was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and
the Warren Commission?
Mr. Colby. To my knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca.
Chairman Church. Where is it now?
Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last yea .
He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is
retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in
the Washington area.
. Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us.
Mr. Colby. Still working with Us to help on the transi-
tion of the-whole counter-intelligence program.- --
Chairman Church. Why did he retire?
Mr. Colby. � That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and
the facts of that case were that I had had some professional
differences in_the organization with Mr. Angleton as to the
way the c6unterinte1ligence business was run and the way the
Israeli account was handled. I believed that it required a
higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the
Directorate.and of the Agency. We. had debated this on various
occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 anc
took a numbar of functions ...way from it. The
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endeavored to open up the Israeli account to a better relation-
ship with our cts.-.:..r Near Eastern activities.
We debated this
over many months and on several occasions. We could never
really agree to it because he insisted on the importance of
retaining it whene it was.
. Mr. Angleton had done a very good job of establishing that
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liaison years ago and knew a lot of the senior Israeili who
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were involved in it.
I believed there was inadequate coordination in the Arab
areas.
� � Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart
mnntation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with
our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and I
set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December
because there were some very substantial retirement benefits
that people would loose if they stayed after that point. Th_r
unfortunately the Seymour .Hirsh article of December 22nd came
to-our attention before it was actually published, and so I
brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make two
,basic decisions. I was going to move the Israeli account from
his control and I was going to put some sucessor leadership
into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I woul,
offer him a post of tVing together some counterintelligence
doctrine he could stay wo::::ing with. us. He did not have to
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s. w.....ineu to retire the opportunity wasthcre.
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2 chose,te retire. I insisted that I talk to him before the
3 Seymour Hirs- article appeared. I knew it was coming. I
4 didn't know what it was going to say. I wanted to make clear
5 between him and me that the decision was based upon our long-
standing discussion of how to run that particular activity.
The question then came up who would be his successor and
Mr. Rocca was his Deputy. There were two other officers who
were possibilities. One of the officers, Mr. Hood, had said
in early December that he planned to retire at the end of
Dacember. The other two, Mr. Rocca and Mr. Miler, were informed
that they would not be the successor Chief of that staff. The\
ware offered a chance to stay on in their then current jobs.
They chose to retire. All four of them agreed to stay with
us on a consultant basis over .the next several months to help
us on the transition of new leaderShip into that job, and they
have done so.
Chairman Church. Well,. without getting off the track, I.
just have one further question here in connection with Mr.
Angleton himself.
Is it true that he is still being paid as a consultant?
Mr. Colby. I believe it has dropped off,-Mr..Chairman..
He did help us for three or four months but I believe that it
is terminated. It is about time to terminate it, I know, and
whether it i on this particular date has been.kgtnJnated.
Ro
S.
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He set ourselves about six month period where we would hoto
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to �
Chairman Church.
nitely?
There is no plan to retain him indefi-
Mr. Colby. Absolutely not. It was to help us get over
this transition and phase him out.
Chairman Church. Very well.
Senator Mondale: I asked for vouchers on payments with
respect to assass.inations?
Mr. Colby. I am looking for that. I don't have an answe
for you yet, Senator.
The request was also made .whether we had any information
concerning plots to .assassinate Chou En Lai We have
rLports
-----
of two such examples, incidents, both conducted by the Chinese
Nationalists without our prior knowledge and without our
participation.
One in Aptril'1955, an Air India aircraft crashed at
sea off Indochina after 'departing from Hong Kong. Several
Chine,sr, communist delegates for the Bandung Conference were
on board and it had been rumored that Chou En Lai would ba on
the aircraft.
On the 11th of January 1956, the British Colonial Office
in London issued an official statement reporting they had
evidence that the Chinese iationalists had bribed a Hong Kong
airport employee to place a time bomb on the airplane.
,
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and the US for sabotaging the aircraft.
The aircraft employee
had flcd to. Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident
and frankly heard .about it after it occurred.
In the fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist 0 icial
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informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to'
assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in -
NoveMber '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arras.- of
the Chinese Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervis
the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we
had nothing to do with.it.
We had a relationship with the Chinese Nationalists
Intelligence Service over the years and -they clearly have done
without our knowledge or involvement, and in a number
things
of areas, but we have .also worked together on some areas.
These are two that were separate.
Also I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard nun._
and Sturgis that appeared in.Newsweek some years ago. We
obtZined this photograph from the FBI list night about 5 o'clock
We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek
edit ic n.
These are photographs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and
1961. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis.
It is taken out of the NowswEek.
We have had no connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we
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Lt; is subject to the problems of it.
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2 We .had our photographic experts and analysts and so forth
3 look at these two individuals here who were picked up. We
4 examined them in'considerable detail, and talking about the
5II '61 Hunt photograph, comparing it with this, and this is the
6 II photograph,Newsweek photograph. You�will see that there is a
lot of sor t.of fundamental differences in the kinds of �
8 appearances they have, different characteristics of the
9 individuals.
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With respect to Sturgis, of course, we are not as confi-
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dent because we don't have as good a base to work from in cur
comparison but at the same time we see differences there also.
Now, we further looked, had one of our disguise people --
we obviously have people who can disguise you red wig
eipisod2.. It wasn't red, they insist, it wasn't ill fitting-;
That is the thing that They get upset about. But they say that
it would not be feasible to have them actually in a disguise,
have these individuals_actually in .this disguise that it is
too-bigva junp, it differs.
Senator Huddleston.. How about the size of the indiVidu-1
are they pretty close?
Mr. Colby. These two are. He looks like a shorter man
from the surroundings. And Hunt is about medium height, rathrn
than this short.
Mr. Knoche. Hunt is five feet 'Len and a hal -es.
"fto
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2 were able to do a pretty good job on Hunt and, what they do is
identify certain key points, make measurements and put adjust-
4 ments, the same thing we do for the satellite photography in
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terms of these measurements, and things like that, and compare
it in that sense, and their conclUsion:is that clearly, this is
not Hunt. They are absolutely confident that this photograph
is not Hunt. They are less confident that it is not Sturgis
because of the base on which they are operating, but they thin)
it is not.
I point out that this analysis was done overnight, about
3 o'clock in the morning.. This is Sturgis.
Mr. Schwarz. And to the right?'
Mr. Colby. This is a.newspaper photograph of Hunt a
recent one. These are sort of Agency photographs of him when
he was an employee.
Senator Hart Of Colorado. Were those men ever identified
by the Dallas Police?
we.
�
Mr. Colby. They must have booked them or something if
they carried them in. I really don't know. If they took them
In I would assume thay would have had to book them.
Senator Hart of Colorado. What are these pictures on the
lower right and left?
Mr. Colby. Th?se arc the blowups of the particular
photographs.
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Approved for Release: 2022/06/27 C06673356 Not the one you had earlier?
Ar. Colby. They are different.
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Senator Hart Of Colorado. They are different angles?
Mr. Colby. This is reversed.
Senator Hart of Colorado. They are different photographs?
Mr. Colby. It is reversed.
Senator Hart Of Colorado. No. They arc- not A and B even
reversed.
Mr. Colby. .They can do th.at kind of a turn through the -
Senator Hart of Colorado. They can twist the photographs
around?
?1r. Colby. They can make it appear at a different angle.
Senator Hart of Colorado.- B at least is a totally dif-
ferent pose. They turned his mouth down. His eyes are clossd
They have really done A job if- they changed B to that lower
right.
Mr. Colby.' They can change them, honest.
Let me gat my brief on that and I will answer that
question.
They magnified them to the same scale using the eyes and
mouth. The contrast and texture differences were minimized,
continuous tone photographs employed and angular compensations
were made to offset errors incident to the different heads.
They can 'mix themaround in that kind .of fashion. .
Senator SchweiFer. Warn these men d�tainsd? If they
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from their detention.
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detained maybe there nrn nhnl-nrfraphs
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Were thsso men arrested?
Mr. Colby. At the time we have had to work on this
w9 ha\-?.
just looked at the photographs.
Senator Schweiker. I assume that is where they are going
to be detained.
Mr. Schwarz. Wasn't the same analsysis done for the
Rockefeller Commission about two months ago? In other words,
there has been an analysis at least once before last night,
hasn't there?
Mr. Knoche. got by us.
Mr. Colby. :Perhaps by someone else.
Chairman Church. Mr. Director, that is a different
photograph.
Mr. Colby. It does look like it.
I will answer that question next time I coma up.
Chairman Church. All right. flow can we folloW up on tho
identity of these two people in connection with the Dallas
Police? Would that be done through the FBI?
Mr. Colby. FBI. I could abk or you could ask, it might
be better if you ask.
Chairman Church. Well, I think we should. I think these
should he marked as Committee Exhibits and staff should b2
instructed to follow through with the FBI to get what further
information there may bs about the photographs and those two
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3-U-9.)11 got the other photogra,, thn
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sOpposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy?
4 Mr. Colby. .I don't have that with me. It is in the
Warren Commission published report. It is in there.
Senator Schweiker. It is in there?
Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to
conceal where it was taken but it was --
Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission?
Mr. Colby. ' Yes, it is in the Warren Commission.
Just one additional matter.
Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to
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you, Mr. Colby, before I forget it. You have made reference
to the Israeli account and the special way that it had been
handled under Mr. Angleton. Before we finish our review with
you of covert operations we would like to have a more detailed
statement of that matter.
Mr. Colby. Right.
� Chairman Church. And I think you should prepare( to
discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask
you in connection with it.
I just wanted to give you notice.
Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a
covert action but that is all right/ no problem, I will
it.
fl177101-1?
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LnaLiman Lhurcn. All right. At some point then in our
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2 investigation?
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5 Mr. Colby. Sure, no problem.
4 The only other one thing I would like to suggest for the
5 record, Mr. �Chairman, with respect to the discussion of the
attempts made against Mr. Castro, in no way justifying them.
My position on this is quite clear. I do think it'Ainportant'
to put that exercise in the context of the times, which was
the_times of the Bay of Pigs, which was a decision made
the Government. The Cuban missile crisis, and following that,
a program approved by our normal covert action approval mecha-
nism to try to generate an overthrow of Mr. Castro from within
Cuba by assisting various groups to go in with sabatage and
by putting economic pressure on the country, and so forth.
That went on for a number of years after the 1961-62 episodes
,and I think it does put a cover of policy attitude toward Cuba
and toward Mr. Castro that is an important factor in evaluat-
ing the thing, without in any way justifying the particular
�
atCempts_ to assassinate him.
Senator Hart of Michigan. But was there any evaluation
'done at or about the time of that Cuban missile crisis?
of
Mr. Colby. There Was an evaluation done after the Bay
, a rather intensive Investigation Internal Security
Branch Review of the activity and then the Cuban missile
crisis came along shortly thereafter before anything very much
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got goina. Thereafter, however, a number or progroix_,
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conducted,- which I am sure the Committee might want a general
2
3 summary of. I am just giving you one sort of a paragraph
4 summary of it, which were aimed at. putting economic pressure
on Cuba in the hopes that this would put pressure against him
5
and lead to its disorder and problems there and, secondly, to
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encourage revolutions, sabotage and so forth, from within
Cuba through a variety of programs of propaganda, support of
exile movements,. landing of teams on the coast, things of this
nature.
Chairman Church. The difficult with this is, as I see it
although, what you say is true, once an agency begins td---7.:z
in assassination attempts the disease spreads. Your own
testimony shows it spread at least as far as the Dominican
Republic and we are going to get into closer questions on
other matters such as Lmumba and Chile.
So that I.don't think this issue can be confined really t
to the emergency that did in fact exist between the US and
Cuba and the seriousness of that emergency at the time. .
Mr. Colby. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. I am against
it and have been against it for a long time,. but nonetheless
I think in fairness to the people involved at that period I
22
think it is important to give total context.
23
Chairman Church. Yes.
24
Mr. Schwarz..
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2 to cfrtcApprOved for Release: 2022/06/27 C06673356Ly thfa ap. might havb con.tompi t
3 additional efforts to assassinate Castro after the Bay of Pigs,
after the missile crisis, it would not have acted unless direct
5 by the very highest authority, would it?
Mr. Colby. That is not that. clear, Senator Hart. I thin!
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the evidence we have is that the then Director was not a-saro
of some of these activities and, therefore, one would have a
very difficult time saying that it was pursuant to a specific
authorization. �It was consistent with an overall policy which
was the point I was saying, but nonetheless I think the spe-
cific action we cannot say was approved even within the Agency
at the Director level.
Senator Hart of Michigan. Is there any indication that '
the Director, who did know of at least an earlier attempt --
is there any indication that following the Bay of Pigs, or
following the missile crisis, he explicityly brought the sub-
ject Up for review?
� - Mr. Colby. There is one documentary evidence that Mr.
Mccone dictated in 1967, I believe it was, in which he recount d
.being informed of a meeting, of an inter-Agency meeting at
which the subject of assassination was raised, and he made a
particular point of indicating after the, meeting -- he was
not at the meeting; I believe, but he heard of the meeting and
he made a particular pcir.t of saying: he disapproved of this
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1 and din --- . .
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Senator Hart:.of Michigan., Who was that meeting McCone
5 heard about?
4 Mr. Colby. That was the meeting we were talking about at
5 the last session.
6 Mr. Schwarz. You brought up. a new document which was Mr.
7 McCone's dictation of recollection of '67.
8 Mr. Colby. Yes; I think you have that.
9 Mr. Schwarz. That I have not seen. I know we do not
10 have that.
- 11 Mr. Colby. I am sorry, I thought you did.
12 Mr. Schwarz. Could that be supplied?
13 � Mr. Colby. No problems, yes. This is our document and -
14 'Chairman Church. Will you supply the Committee with the
15 document?
16 Mr. Colby. Yes.
17 Excuse me,.I beg your pardon. He states in '67, at one
of these meetings, about this time, I recall a suggestion made
18
19 bei717.g made to liquidate top people in the Castro regime, .
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20 including Castro. I took immediate exception to this suggestio

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stating that the subject was completely out Cf bounds as far as
the US Government and CIA were concerned. The idea should not
be discussed nor should not be discussed nor should it a r
Ro
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in any papers. 1
Zi =
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Senator Mondale. Mr. Colby, the other day when 17- Hvv.
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testified there_ 'Line a mnmnrn.,A�m 411�
er you gave us from I think
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'Mr. Osborn, which objected to a memorandum by General Landsdalc
winch referred to assassinations of political leaders, in a
memorandum regarding Operation Mongoose, which was Cuba. And
it referred to an attachnd memorandum which I think you said
was the property of the FBI. ,
Mr. Colby. Of the National Security Council.
Senator Mondale. nsc.
gather you have a copy of that, but you don't feel
authorized to let us see it?
Mr. Colby. I do have a copy of it. The understanding
ci
we have had with tha other agencies is that each of us gives
our own material but we refer to the other agency for any
documents belonging. to the other agency.
Chairman Church. Well, it is very difficult for the
Committee to operate that
Way.
I think that since the Committe,
.is.entitled to this ihformation, that when it is pertinent
and as we proceed in our hearings from one subject to another,
we ought to be able to secure the information without having
to go back- through executive channels.
Mr. Colby. May I undertake to get the permission to give
it to you? I will undertake to do this today.
Chairman Church. Any observations that..the Committee
wishes to make on this kind of a problem?
It is the� first time it :las cone up.
IC r.�Th ,1
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SerApio rovediOr Release:I-2032/66/27 C666733561S this the understanding we
have had or not?
Mr. Schwarz. It has been a total frustration to the staff
and I am very happy it has come up here because we get chased
around the corner by one agency to another. It is called the
"third agency 'rule." It was intended to have nothing to do
with Congressional hearings. Obviously, it had to do with
declassification to the public, and it. has happened to complete'
delay our ability to gat information because we go at one agenc�
and then they determine that it really isn't their document
or it mentioned some other agency, and then we have to go to
the other -agency..
This is an. example of how frustrating it is.
Senator Mondale. Have.we triad to gat this document from
the NSA?
Mr. Colby. No; this particular document had just come up
oniWednesday -- '
Senator Schweiker. Does the counsel have any suggestions
as to what he feels the Committee position should be in this
area to enable him and staff to do an effective job?
Mr. Schwarz. I think the Committee's position ought to be
that pertinent information should be produced by any agency
that possesses it, and if they wish to inform another agency
that they are doing it, then that is their business. But I
think they should have to produce it if they possess
o ro#4
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F
S e;riAp.proved-fOr Release: 2022/06/27 C0667335_,:in � this memo from :.:c 70 re Cers
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back to the meeting about which Osborne memorandum aild the
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Lansdale --
Mr. Colby. The series of two or three meetings at that
time, yes.
Senator Mondale. I think this is very important because
apparently this was a meeting at which Mc:;amara and Rusk were
present, and apparently McCone was present, so we had all of
the top principal's.
. Mr. Colby. At least one of them.
.Senator Mondale. And they discussed assassinations at
that meeting.
And then Osborne came back with a memo which is
now part of the record.
Mr. Colby. I think it'is Edwards in that case. Harvey,
excuse me.
Senator Mondale. Harvey. He came back with a memo which
the Director supplied, objecting not to the assassination but
to putting it in writing.
Chairman Church. Of course what we don't know is whether
the assassination or subject-of assassination' that came up at
this meeting was conjecture or whether it had to do with a
revelation of actual attempts that had involved the CIA or
that it had to do with an ongoing assassination effort by the
CIA.
Senator Mondale. Yes.
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Chairman Church. All wn know is the subject of assassina-
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tions apparently came up in the course of the meeting.
3
�ba.
Mr. Colby. Mr: Chairman, as one of the agencies involv-d,
4
if I could offer one explanation for the Third Agency Rule
5
even in this 'circumstance. And Lam particularly interested in
6
this because sometimes our documents have material whose
7
_sensitivity is not apparent on the face and we assume that this
8
will be handled in certain compartmented channels, and if it
9
gets out of the compartment it might give problems that the
individual at the other end Wasn't aware of. That is the
basis for the rule. The thought being go back and ask the
.
originator, and he has a feeling for that and could make the
particular case if something particularly sensitive is involved
14 Chairman Church. I would suggest, Mr. Colby, without
15 binding the Committee to a precedent, with respect to dealing
16. with the Third Party Rule, that in this case you undertake
17 to:sacure from the VSA
18 Mr. Colby. I will.
19 Chairman Church. -- its permission to turn this particular
20 document over to tha Committee so it may be made a part of thes,
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hearings.
22 Mr. Colby. I will endeavor to do that today, Mr. Chairman
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Senator Morgan. I am goino to inquire from Senator
Mondale what memorandum were you r'eading about McCone and the
group being present?
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SciApproved for Release 2022/06/27 C06673356 ma'tora;dun, it is r igh h
from Mr. Harvey. Do I have the wrong one?
Yes, it is dated, I will show it to you, in which he
objucts to --
Chairman Church. What is the date of it?
Senator Mondale. 14 August 1962.
Senator Morgan. Do we have that?
Mr. Schwarz. It was shown to Us on Wednesday, marked
or deemed marked as part of the record, and returned to the CIA
who returned it to up today.
Mr. Colby. I have another copy of it.
Senator Mondale.
It refers to a meeting in Mr. Rusk's
office at which presumably. McNamara and Rusk, I gather from tha
later memo, and McCone ware present, and it says this.
"I called Lansdale's office and in his absence
to Frank Head thd inadmissibility and stupidity of putting this
type of comment in writing in a document. The words he objeced
to were including liquidation of leaders. I advised him as
far as CIA was concerned we would write no document pertaining
to this and would participate in no open meeting to discuss
it."
I read that to mean we will go ahead and do it but we don't
want anything in writing and don't want to be in
meeting wharo
it is going 1.:o Thates a lot of sens. No living
pJlitician wants to b.!'ansoci;:ted with an assassination, 2van
Visigga--ftw
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if he Wa 1A4-pcproceTror-FiereseT. 2022/06/27 C06673356 I think that is COMM011 SQ11.5-1:
�
That is why I think these documents are so crucial.
Chairman Church. Of course they are crucial and we must
have them.
The ambiguity, however, that we have yet to clear up is
in the third paragraph, Senator Mondale, where the memorandum
reads the question of assassination, particularly of
Castro, was brought up by Secretary McNamara at a meeting of
the special group jugmented in Secretary Rusk's office in
August. It was the obvious consensus at that meeting, in
answer to a coMment by Mr. Ed Murrow, :that this is not a subjec
:which has been made a matter. of official record, the subject
being the question of assassination.
Now, that leaves us still without any documentary proof
that it was revealed at this meeting that the CIA was in fact
enijaged in an effort to assassinate.
.Senator Mondale. Was Lansdale'working for the CIA at
this tima?
Mr. Colby. Pardon?
Senator Mondale. Was General Lansdale working for the
CIA at this time?
Mr. Colby. General Lansdale was Assistant to the Secretary
of Defense, not CIA, at that time.
ea- F ORAN.
Senator Mondale. Had Lansdale been with the CIA?
Mr. Colby. Ho was with CIA in about 1952 to about
r7;) r nrcr,
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Senator Mondale. During the Philippines---
Mr. Colby. During th.2 Philippines and in Vi--tnam at that
time. Then he left CIA. He was a iregular Air Force officer
all this time but he was assigned to CIA for the time he was
in the Philippines and the time he was in Vietnam. He then
reverted to the Air Force and was an Assistant to the Secretary
of Defense until about 1964 or 1965. Then he went out to
Vietnam where he Was an Assistant to the Ambassador, not
working for CIA. We were associated with him but he was not
a CIA officer at that time.
Senator Mondale. Do we know what his job at the Pentagon
was?
Mr. Colby. It was Assistant to the Secretary of Defense.
I can't tell you exactly what the job was entitled but
16 II he was active in the Secretary of Defense's participation in
a variety, you might call it a 40 Committee type of operation.
I think he probably was most cognizant of the various 40
Committee 7-
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Senator Mondale. If he were involved with that, ha
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would have close liaison With all members of the 40 Committee,
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including the CIA?
Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.,
c\3/4
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Chairman Church. I would liha to call your attention alce
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I 'took careful notes .on the comments at this meeting on
this *int and the spaci'al group augmented in not expecting
any written commcnts or study on this point.
There, again, the ambiguity.
It is within the range of the possible that one of the
ongoing efforts of the CIA was in fact raised and discussed. .
It is also possible that the question of assassinating
Fidel Castro --
Senator Mondale. Do we have those notes?
Chairman Church. I was going to ask that.
And that it was agreed that no study or review of this
should be-submitted as an abstract matter, should be submitted
in written form.
So we are left withoutTen answer to this question.
However, with
here, can you tell
Mr. Colby. I
respect to
us whether
don't know
the notes that are referred to
those notes exist?
of any, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Church. He said he took careful notes.
� Mr. Colby. I don't know of any but I certainly will look.
Mr. Breckinridge. When we reviewed this problem inLIEL__
we found no such notes.
Senator Huddleston. Let me inject
this line.
/
a thought or two alond?
It seems to MB like one of the things we are going to 117.,-a
to determine
as
we go lcc ii as to what extent there was
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there isApproved for Release: 2022/06/27 C_06,673.356, cedure of your Agency an
effort not to make notes, an effort. for certain individuals
not to have cartain.knowledga by design.
For instance, I was reading your memorandum here dated
1 June 1973 in which you are reporting on a meeting that occur
You make a point to say that you briefed someone orally. The
word "orally" is, in there --.assuming that for the purpose
someone should know that you did not put anything in writing
or you did not giVe�him a written report.
You also say that I personally managed to avoid gaining
any knowledge of what precise actions were taken.
I thrill( a reasonable inference there is that there is a
deliberate on your part here .---and maybe this is standard
operating procedure -�� for you not to gat specific information
4
so that you always will be in the poSition of not knowing
some-
thing,
Mr. Colby. I don't recognize the reference. Certainly,
I think 341 past years there were situations we did not want
to commit to writing.
There is a great deal of effort made by us to what
14.-2
call compartment information so that it is known only to certain
people and not known to others. The compartment is still to
be open at the top, however.
There are thin7s that I purposely try not to know. I don't
. 25 II want to know the name of an agent in the� Soviet Union. I have
rtV. pre,. n
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absolutely no desire to learn his name because I don't need
2
to know that information.
Senator Huddleston. Here we are referring to action in
4
this case and not individuals.
5
Mr. Colby. I don't recognize that. I could perhaps put
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it in context if I could see the memorandum.
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Mr. Schwarz. Perhaps we ought to mark that memorandum.
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Senator Huddleston. Memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby.
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I thought it was by Mr. Colby.
Mr. Colby. I ,am sorry.
Senator Huddleston. Someone within the Agency apparently
is informing you'abOut something and the subject is special
activities. I don't see a name on it.
It has information in it about. both the President and
Attorney General being involved in briefings.
Mr. Schwarz I think for convenience of reference we
ought to mark it as an exhibit.
Lets number as today's number, and we have put in the
three charts so far, and wa will call this, which is
June 1973 memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby, subject�special
activities, from stamped pages 00457, 00458, and 00459, ofTY.
the so-called 694 pages.
(The document above referred to was.
24 marked Colby Exhibit lo. 4.)
25 Mr. Colby. 1 recognize what that is, Senator aiddlcston.
e.Th 17) r7,
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we
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going through that period in the middle of 1973 where I
was taChnically,� T guess, Director of Operations but had been
nominated to become Director. This was the kind of thing that
normally would be addressed to the Director but we had an
Acting Director, General Walters, but it was pretty clear I
was responsible for making the machinery run, and we had a lot
of things around the Agency addressed to me and signed by me.
I believe this follows a conversation I had with a Mr.
Walter Elder, who was an Assistant to Mr. John McCone -- he
was Executive Assistant when�he.was Director -- I think Mr.
Elder told me that there were certain things that he knew of
in the background that related to this effort of identifying
various questionable activities of the Agency, and I asked
him to go write tham down so we could get them into the
- Inspector General's report.
Senator Suddleston. The only question I raise, I don't
want to get off into the contents of a particular memorandum,
but the context with the area you were Pursuing, just whether
or not standard operating procedure would require at times
there be a deliberate avoidance by certain people in the
Agency of facts and whether or not there is a great body of
decisions that are made and implomonted without anything writ-tc
down, so that there would never be any documentary evidence
of it?
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there is an avoidance by a lot of people of learning things
that they are not authorized to know. I'mean the more loyal
in a sense of our employees, say that they have authority to
know what it going on in, say, Cuba, they don't have a right
to know what is going on in, say, China, and they rather
carefully keep themselves from learning what is going on in
China. I think that is a prevalence.
I think the question you are asking, however, is whether
we are trying to keep activities off of paper and it is pretty
clear that.the assassination Story was essentially kept off
the paper(
And I would, think that is about the only one. No, the
drug thing. I assume some of that was kept off of paper?
Mr. Breckinridge. Yes.
Mr. Colby. The lesson that I have frequently given to
my Colleagues in the bureaucracy is that however hard you try
to keep it off of' paper, you will not succeed in a bureaucracy,
toN,
somebody will write it down and, therefore, it is a totally
feckless exercise to pretend that you can keep it secret by
not writing it down. But the fact is there were situations
in which a conscious effort was made in the past to keep things
off tive record.
Senator Huddleston. ,To cum up, you, as Director, with the
exception of. individual names for which there would be no/.3,
eaci
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particular value to you aria no advantage to you knowing,
for thSt you make no deliberate effort not to know about
operations?
except
Mr. Colby. No. As a matter of faCt, I take the opposita
position, Senator. I say that to my subordinates and have
reiterated a number of times, I cannot be subjected to surprise.
You have got to let me know the things .I ought to know. And
I have undertaken the same obligations to my oversight committes
for example, that I am responsible getting to them before
they hear about'it.some.place else.
Senator Huddleston. The other is in this inauiry. Can
the Committee expect that every effort will be made to supply
to us information about various things, even though they may
not be written down?
Mr. Colby. You have my 'commitment to that effect.
Senator Huddleston. Going further and looking through
the, files for notes and documents?
Mr. Colby. It is my hop..., Senator, that I can help you
on this investigation rather than defending myself
Senator Huddleston. That is all.
Mr. Colby. That is what I would like to have the relation-
ship, that I am trying to help you do this investigation.
03
Chairman Church. We want such a relationship and wey
24 are tryina to work it out..
25 Mr. Colby. I know you .0o.. You' have sal...! it a number of
Tvil; f:=1 r"; rnT
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against you.
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Chairman Church. Now, Senator Mondale.
Senator Mondale. The memorandum from John McCone that
we received this morning, dated 14 April, 1967, is addressed
to the Director.
Was McCone an employee or related with the CIA at that
� time?
Mr. Colby. *No, he left in 1965.
Senator Mondale. So this was a memorandum from a person
no longer with the CIA, as former Director to the current
Director, which begins "no memorandum can be located covering
the August, '62 meeting."
'That is the one that earlier says the question of
assassination was disCussed.. However, it is highly probable
that one exists.
Now, I would like all documentation, records, and notes
that bear on the question of what McCone was referring to,
because I get the impression that the then Director, Mr. Helms
Mr. Colby. Yes.
Senator Mondale. -- was reviewing the question of documenta
tions and records affecting that meeting, or the question of
assassination, and I think we need to know what transpired,
what was happening then, what kind of responses he received.
Mr. Colby. We will cvrtainly give you that. I can give
ynu a- basic explanation.
e-t yr; rig WI,
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ThjAPProved for Release 2022/06/27 a:166733561th '2 revelation in Jack
2
Anderson's columns, I believe, of our relati:Alship with the
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Mafia figures at that time. This then ganurated the recuest
to Mr. Breckinridge to do an Inspector General's report of
this whole subject, which he_did,_andlwhich we will certainly
make available to this_committ
In the course of it, and with the publicity, Mr. McCona,
who does maintain an occasional contact with the Agency, he
is a friend of it .and an ex-Director -- I sea him every now
and again and try to sort of keep him up with what is going
On in general terms without getting into political or sensitive
matters or anything -7 but he does maintain this contact and
I am sure that somebody made contact with him or he made contact
with the Agency about the Jack Anderson column, and that then
generated this particular memorandum.
Senator Mondale. And there was an Inspector General's
study done at that time?
Mr. Colby. Yes, sir; and you will get access to that.
Senator Mondale. Can we have documentation as to how
it was originated and the response to what was done?
Chairman Church. Yes, we should have that information
And I might say that you arc aware, no doubt, that charges have
bean made that documents have been destroyed in the CIA which
ma'; have been connected with the general subjact of
coR0-
involvement in assassination offor*s.
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Lan jut' Len Lnis Lphmlizzfle whether, to your knowledge,
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documents have been destroyed?
Mr. Drackinridge. I think we .can talk in terms of what
we know is there.
On the Castro assassination, the involvement with
Mafia, there were .a few memoranda in the Office of Security,
and I think you. have copies of those.
'
On the second phase of that, there are practically no �
records at all and our investigation at that time was made
entirely on interviews.
*Based 'entirely on interviews, an attempt to reconstruct
that activity.
The final action which involved a Cuban by the name of
Cubella --
Mr. Colby. This was the Cuban major we discussed last
time.
� Mr. Breckinridge. Started in the minds of the people
who were.involved, was an attempt to generate an internal
political. action, revolt, and the records. are very full because
there was no attention on the part .of the people who were
involved at that time that that would ba an assassination in
22 the sense that the original work with the Mafia was engaged in
and thero is a full record and that exists today.
23
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In the case of the Dominican F.,,public, this thrielopEA
et. CI
$.
fr
Let ma finish. ,
� mt
t, �
V4�1?ii _ _
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I will go back to the Cubella case.
2
In the instance of the Dominican Republic, the record
was very full thenand it is still very full today. I am
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certain that record is complete.
Again, in the minds of the people who were involved, they
drew a line between the support they gave to the coup group
and conscious association with assassination as such. Those
records are complete and those records were developed at the
.time and they ware retained. It .was in the period of the
Mafia was involved where people knew the purpose was assassina-
tion..
The records.are practically non-existent and I believe
they never existed.
Harvey, who conducted the second phase of that, at the
time of our :investigation had a handful of cryptic notes
that
only he could interpret. We dOuldn't interpret them. And
it is my understanding that those notes no longer e:tist. They
were retained by him and he brought them in at the time that
we were questioning him. He was then on sick leave prior to
retirement. Those notes were totally unrevealing.
I think that those records are in the same state today
that they were then.
� tr.:
There were none in the Castro affair except the r-salts
of our invent ion inv.:lying the Mafia.
Thu CuLella casu is Thilt case did progress to tha
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point that on the very day of President Kennedy's assassination
a man as meeting with Cubella in Paris, and in response to
Cubella's request Offered him an assassination device that at
the time of the investigation we understood he accepted but
I have since been told he did not accept. It was a ballpoint
pen converted into a syringe for injecting poison.
Subsequently, arms were handed to Cubella by a Cuban
refugee in Madrid, in the very early part of 1965, and two.
catches were put down by boats off Cuba for Cubella. I think
he may have recovered one of those but not the other. The
records on that are pretty complete.
So, generally speaking, on those things where the Agency
was involved, with the exception of the association with the
Mafia, where from the beginning the intent was assassination,
the records are complete, and I think that if people look at
those they will find this is so.
Mr. Sahwarz. Is the understanding that all records dealing
with this subject, whether they are in Inspector General
.
reports or underlying documents, would be produced for our
. .e.C...r3/4'.
inspection? ie::, 3 e) \
: 1.7 t-
Mr. Colby. Yes. Hc�t
c�-' e
\
If I may ask. only the Committee's consideration or-the
normal treatuent of compartmentation� and .some discussion of
possibly some individual nams in it that we would hope that
we might be able to handle very. privately, or necessary, or even
� .
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leave out. Dut the normal procedures.
Chairman Church. Very well.
Now, Mr. Schwarz,
Mr. Schwarz. Just to tidy up ona matter.
.Let me mark as Committee Exhibit 5 the John A. McCe.
to the Director memorandum of April 14, 1967.,
(The abova mentioned docu nt was
marked as Colby Exhibit No. 5
for identification.)
Mr, Schwarz, Might I come down with you on this document
and we will look at it tog-thar?
Mr. Colby. .1 have a dopy.
'Mr. Schwarz. As of April, 1967, Mr. McCone was no longer
at the Agency, was he?
Mr. Colby. No.
Mr.. Schwarz. Was ha then in his position with ITT, or
didille have some other position?
Mr. Colby. I really don't know.
Mr. Schwarz. In any event he wasn't at the Agency?
MX. Colby, That is right. -
Mr. Schwarz. The thing that is curious about this memo-
randum, with respect to the state of the record,.is paragraph
23 one, which reads as follows:
24 "No 1-,..morandum can be lor:eted coVe;ne th- 7.uc:nst 10, 1962;
25 however, it is hiculy probable that ona exists."
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now, 4r. McCone, was not in the Agency, is writing a
menprandum to the Director, who was in the Agency, referring
a search by or on behalf of. Mr. McCone.
Now, did Mr. McCone have documents outside the Agency,
or how do you explain?
Mr. Colby. I don't believe he has any documents. I have
,never asked him. But I don't believe ha has any documents
outside of tha Agency.
Mr. Knoche. Mr. McCone wrote me that memorandum while en
Agency premises. It was. during a visit to the Agency and he
had the benefit of his ex-staff assistant, Mr. Walter Elder,
�
helping him in doing a little research in this connection.
Mr. Colby. All that says is that they hadn't located it
by then. I think we have located some since that time.
Mr. Schwarz. Picking up on a question of Senator Hart
of .Michigan, he asked you whether there had
.3=4.
Evaluations
in connection with the Cuban missile crisis, and then you
testified about evaluations post-Bay of Pigs and rather contintzd
evaluations of the
subject of Cuba; But I take it those were
not evaluations or re-evaluations of the subject of assassinati
Mr. Colby. All I can say is I think that question
7.2
a little obscure. !r
I know that after the Day of Pigs failure there was an.
i...vestigatioa merje of e2isode, and in the course cf
that a discussion of what we war�., then to do And a progran wes
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cconomic pressure on Cuba and continuing to support the
various ele:ments which might eventually lead to a change in
the Cuban government through some overthrow or otherwise.
I think some propoganda programs were kept up, some exile
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activities were kept up, some training of teams to be infil-
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.developed. And I an speaking at second hand here. But a
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Pr ogr:
was developed of keeping some economic p essure on Cuba, and
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that was a national policy, not just a CIA -- keeoina an
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trated into Cuba were kept up, some sabotage ooerations were
continued. And those continued over the following several
months.
Right after the 1962 missile crisis I cannot identify
right offhand here any particular review of that -- but I
know that that was a subject of 40 Committee consideration at
various times.
�
Whether that included assassination or not I cannot say.
My guess, as I say, is that if -John McCone didn't know
18 about it, it was not covered in those discussions because it
19 would be very hard to cover them Without his being involved.
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24.
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Chairman Church. Are you telling us that the much publi-
cized investigation of the CIA, which took place following the
Bay of Pigs fiasco, and as I remeMber this review was ordered
by the President in order to determine what had gone wrong and
why, and it was a matter of great .urgency and importance to "- �
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government at that time -- are you telling us that in the
2'
course of that review the Agency's involvement in the asssina-
3
tion efforts against Castro never came to light?
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Mr. Colby. I just don't know, Mr. Chairman. That is
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the answer I have to give you. I Co not know.
I believe the Inspector General report after the Bay of
Pigs does not mention it, does it?
Mr. Breckinridge. No.
Mr. Colby. The report of the Committee that looked into
Hit, General Taylor, and the Attorney General and somebody else --
there were three members of it -- maybe tr. Dulles. I don't
believe that report mention'ad it.
Chairman Church. Do we have a copy of the Taylor Iti:,Dort'
Mr. Colby. I.think it has been made available. Or is
that a third agency problem?
Mr. Schwarz. That is another frustration. That one has
been denied to u on the theory that it is part of the Kennedy
Library and, therefore, we have to go through another channel.
to gat that.
Does the CIA have a copy of the Taylor Report?
Mr. Colby. I don't believe we do. I know we looked for
it a couple of yEars ago and at that time I was told we didn't
have it.
I hat tc say hre unrIer oath V2 do not have one, but T.
know I triad to get ahold of it and was told a con212,,o-f,year5-
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ago that we couldn't have one. But th-rs are lots of draw.rs
in thoe safes in that building.
I am not trying to evade the question. I an trying to
say I don't think Isrt: have one. It could be.
We have a copy of our own Inspector General's report
at that time.
Mr. Schwarz Does that contain any mention of the
8 II assassination subject?
Mr. Colby. No, it does not.
Mn Schwarz. Do you find it puzzling that:the 'CIA doesn't
have a copy: of the report designed to review its activities
in the Bay of Pigs, a report that led to substantial Presidentizl
.changes in the instructions with respect to your jurisdiction?
14 Mr. Colby. Yes.
15 Mr: Schwarz. I mean, it is an important document --
16 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.
17 Mr. Schwarz. -- relating to the CIA.
18 Mr. ,Colby. Yes. sir.
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dr.
. -Senator Schweiker. I wonder if Mr. McCone has a copy?
Mr. Colby. I would doubt it.
Senator Schweiker. That is why he cane in, becaua of that
Mr. Colby. Roughly, yes.
23 Chairman Church. In the course of 'the investigation that
24 took place, this investication that led to the Taylor Report,
Y--F04.4>\
25 '-ha'a took pi.ca in tLa ai.tel.th of the. Bay 'of Pigs.
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Were records kept, that is to say --
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Mr'. Colby. Of contributions?
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. Chairman Church. No. Did the investigation involve
written records? Did it involve testimony taken under oath
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and transcrib'ed? Is there raw material relating to that
6
investigation to which this Committee could gain access?
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Mr. Colby. I don't know the answer to the question,
8
Chairman. Maybe Mr. Breckinridge can help us.
9
Mr. Breckinridge. I am not familiar. with that study.
10
I am familiar with the approach that was taken at the time
11 within our organization when the Inspector Gansral -- I was
12
not involvad.in that study but I have heard it discussed
13 how they approached it.
14 Their understanding of the Bay of Pigs problem was the
15 overall invasion plan and organization for that and concentrate:
16 on that.
.17 ' By way of explanation for the omission of reference to
18 the assassinations, so few peoPle knew about it, and I think
19 it came to no one's attention simply did not discover it
20 at that time. And it may not have been by way of explanation,
21 not a justification. It may not have been associated in the
22 minds of the people who did know about it with the inquiry
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into the military opeatior..
�
Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Bissel knew about it and he was certainly
r4.ru*-N
0
the main architect of the Bay of Pigs; right?
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Mr. Breck.inridge. Right.
Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Dulles, at least the records wn
put in on Wednesday, knew about it and he was substantially
�
involved in the Bay of Pigs. Those gentlemen surely would h7.ve
been questioned by General Taylor and Attorney General Kennedy -
Is that fair?
Mr. Breck nridge. I would assume so.
Mr. Colby. Certainly, yes. But again, if the focus was
on the military operation, it might have been that that other
operation was not involved in it.
Mr. Schwarz. The record further shows that on May 7, 1962,
a meeting was held with Attorney General Robert Kennedy in
which tha contemporaneous document describing that meeting
indicates that he was not told that there was a continuing
and ongoing operation, but rather
was
told of something which
was not called an assassination but was called a projec777-7;
was .told of
something
which was referred to in the past tense;
is that right?
Mr. Colby. It was in the past tense. Whether there was
any other discussion in that netting on this subject We just
don't know.
Mr. Breckinridge. I think I can interpret what happened.
The people who briefed Attorney General Kennedy are the
ones who knew about what we call tilt-, first phase of the operatic
with tha Mafia.
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Colonel Edwards, who was Director of Security, under whos.i
supervision the first portion of that activity was carried on,
had withdrawn fromit.
The Operation, when it was reactivated later, was reactivate
on a compartmented basis, and Colonel Edwards did not know
about it. �
Mr. Schwarz. Even though it continued to involve the
Mafia until early 1%)?
Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. Colonel Edwards no
longer kneW what was going on. So when he briefed the Attorney
General he did not know that this second operation, this
reactivation of the operation that had formerly run und-r his
responsibility -- he did not know that it was ongoing.
Mr. Schwarz. ,Who was responsible for. the selection of
Colon-1 Edwards and General Counsel Houston as being the
persons who would go to brief Attorney Gen,-ral Xennedy?
Mr. Breckinridge. I an not sure I know that.
Mr. .Schwarz. It would have been someone of higher
authority within the CIA; is that correct?
Mr. Breckinridge. We have tried to determine.
Mr. Houston, if I understand it, feels that he would not
have done this unless he thought the Director knew.
Mr. Schwarz. Knew what?
Mr. Breckinridge.
he did- not talk to the Director about it.
Knew that he was going to do this. Ent