OS - INTERVIEW <SANITIZED>

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 06619080
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 9
• Document Creation Date: March 9, 2023
• Document Release Date: February 6, 2020
• Case Number: F-2013-01784
• Publication Date: June 14, 1989

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14 June 1989
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
SUBJECT: Interview with
1. On 13 June 1989,
SAD/LIB, interviewed
SAD/SIB, and
at his son's residence in
2. Prior to the interview, had an opportunity to
review the Widows chapter on James Kronthal. As is the
person who found Kronthal's body, he was interviewed to confirm or
discount information and allegations made in the book. What
follows are excerpts of the interview, bearing on the Kronthal
case.
Q: Were you in Security at the time of this incident?
A: No, that's all wrong. Gould (Cassal) and I had been
instructors in the Training Office.
I had been just moved over to the German Branch and Gould was
still in Training. And basically, I was still in Training.
(passage omitted) I was hired by Training to be a professor in the
Soviet Affairs Branch. (passage omitted)
Then I, because of my German background, wanted to get my
period away from Training. I had been three and a half years in
Training, so I moved over to the German Branch. And, one morning,
the famous morning, I had a phone call from Gould, who was still
in Training. He said, I think, I'm not quite sure, but I think he
has asked me to drive out to Jim's apartment.
said:
Q: That's
who?
A: She was a close friend, and I
think she has since died. But she was a personal friend of Jim
Kronthal's. As a matter of fact, the book says the night this
happened he had a dinner with Dulles. I think it was
may be wrong about that.
WARNING NOTICE
INTELLIGENCE SOURCES
OR METHODS INVOLVED
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Q: We never found anything in Mr Dulles' papers that said that.
He would usually write down his dinner appointments. . . .
A: Of Course he would. I'm quite sure I would have remembered
that in the conversation -- that he had a meeting with Dulles. He
may have had a meeting with him some time before, because at that
time the Chief of Training was pretty much directly subordinate to
the Director, rather than subordinate to the Chief of Operations,
or what was then the DD/P, because the training establishment was
both Overt and Covert and was one big hodge-podge. But Jim
Kronthal was the Chief of Covert Training, though I think at that
time he was also responsible for the overt. But, I wasn't, I had
been in the covert, but things were changing at that point. I
really didn't know Jim that well, because I had moved out of
training just about the time he came in.
Anyway, to get back to the phone call. He said, c;ssays
he's supposed to be at a meeting and he hasn't showed up. An
she's worried. She thinks we ought to go out to his apartment.
Q: And did she work for us at the time?
A: Yes, (passage omitted) she was the head of the Administrative
Training Section, of the Office of Training. (passage omitted)
She was a widow. He husband had been killed during the war and I
believe that her wartime experience was both Red Cross and OSS.
My guess would be that she was older than Jim Kronthal. (passage
omitted) Gould said: My car was in the garage, and
suggested that you could drive me. Well, and I were good
friends. We had next door offices. (passage omitted)
second woman who was closely involved at this time was
wife, Cordelia Dodson Hood
(passage omitted)
Both Cordelia and (her brother)
before the war and had good connections
don't know, but I suspect, reading this
Kronthals, all knew each other
in Germany, pre-WWII.
Also, the
had been in Germany
in the German scene. I
book, the and the
in that American community
Anyway, Cordelia and were very good friends. And
since I knew Cordelia from the o d days in college, it was a small
world kind of thing. (passage omitted)
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So, I said sure, and left my office and picked up Gould at the
Training Office, which was across Independence Avenue and we
headed off to the apartment. I had never beeh to Jim's
apartment. I didn't know where it was, but Gould did.
We got there and the maid, my memory had been it was
but was perfectly good to me. I knew it was something
"ia." But, Gould knew her. He had been in the house many times.
As we came in she said "Would you like some coffee?" And she went
and brewed up some coffee and showed us the note he had left
saying "do not disturb." And we talked to her, and she didn't
want us to go upstairs, because she had been told he didn't want
to be disturbed. We told her: But he's got an appointment this
morning, and he's either forgotten it and it is supposedly an
important meeting. Neither of us knew what the meeting was about,
because he (Gould) would have gotten it second hand. I would have
gotten it third hand. So, we sat down. We figured by the time
we'd have a cup of coffee, he'd wake up.
Well, when we'd had our coffee, Gould was ready to go back to
the office. And I said: Gould, I don't like this. We've got to
go up and if the door's locked, then we go back to the office.
But, if its open, something, afterall, natural causes whatever.
So I went up. Gould stayed downstairs. I went up and opened the
door and there was Jim in bed. The story that, I think that's not
the way it was. I think he was in bed. He had laid a linen towel
across his chest this way (indicates lengthwise across the upper
chest) and he was waxy, there was sweat on his forehead, but
relaxed face. But he was obviously dead. And on the table next
to him was a little tube. (A later phone conversation with
mentioned the tube had military markings) And leaning against the
lamp was an envelope, facing the door, with "Richard Helms."
So, I left, didn't touch anything. I went downstairs and told
them, though I waited until the maid was somewhere else and told
him (Gould) he was dead. He's committed suicide. And, of course,
Gould said: How? And I said: "I'm absolutely convinced it was an
L-tablet." (passage omitted)
And now, so now what do we do? So I said: the note says "Dick
Helms." And both of us knew Dick. Dick had been the East
European Division and had moved on to be the Chief of Operations
for the DD/P.
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And I said: "Well, there's going to be a problem here. How do we
handle it." And he said: I think we ought to call Dick. He had
the number and he rang him up and said: I can't talk to him. So,
I took the phone, and besides, he said: You found him. And,
Gould was very upset. He was quite emotionally disturbed. Again,
it was a close friend, whereas I hardly knew Jim. In fact I had
likely seen him twice before.
So I told Dick Helms what had happened. And he said: Stay
there, call the police, and I will get Shef Edwards there before
the police get there, which, of course, didn't happen. Shef
didn't arrive until the police had been there and the whole, the
ambulance and the whole thing had been screaming around for a long
time.
And the man who came in said he was chief of the District
detectives office (Lawrence Hartnett) and who was the man
upstairs. I said James Kronthal. And, of course, we had to go
through the spelling. And he said: Where did he work? And I
said "CIA," because I had asked Dick, "What do I say?" And he
(Helms) said: Tell them the truth. Don't try to avoid anything.
So I said "CIA". And he (Hartnett) said: Aeronautics? CAA? And
I said: "No, CIA." And he said: What's that? (passage omitted)
So, there I was. I couldn't believe that the chief of
detectives of the District Police wouldn't have been contacted and
briefed, and that procedures would have been worked out for this
kind of a thing. Well, about that time, Shef Edwards came in, and
I can't remember who came with him, but he was a man, I can't
remember his name, but he was rather famous. He wore a hearing
aid in those days with a wire that went down to a belt. . .
Q: Gaynor?
A: Yes, Paul Gaynor. (passage omitted) So then, he had never
met the Chief of Detectives, and there was a hell of a lot of .
. "What are you doing here?" from the police. And so, he
(Edwards) showed his badge. He was able to convince them (the
police) that we were no longer needed. That we should be allowed
to go. So at that point Gould and I (passage omitted) went back
to his office. I went back with him, because he wanted me to be
with him when he told the people in Training what had happened.
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So then we talked to And she was really
upset. She said: I don' really understand it. We had a date,
tonight. He had talked to me last night about our getting
together again. She said: I just don't understand it. And tears
and stuff. We left her.
Later that afternoon I went with Gould to Cordelia's apartment
down in because the women had asked that we talk to
them about what had happened. So, we sat around with Cordelia
and and another women who I had never met before and
whose name I don't recall. And that was just about it.
The next day the press . . . I went home early. I told my
wife: If the newspapers call, just say "no comment" and hang up.
Something's happened. (passage omitted) Something in the office
the newspapers are onto. Don't talk to them. (passage omitted)
Cordelia was the grand woman of the Agenc
had worked with Dulles as his 'girl Friday' And, her (b)(1)
husband, later husband, was the i e c er boy (b)(1) (b)(3)
office. The joke was that Mr Dulles could never remember his (b)(3)
name. He always referred to him as "Cordelia's husband." I think
whole career was damaged by that. Those of us who new
Cordelia used to joke about that. (b)(3)
Q: At the time you all found the body, between then and when Shef
Edwards and Paul Gaynor arrived, did you all look around the house
or anything like that?
A: We just sat back down at the kitchen table. As a matter of
fact, it wasn't much more than seconds, minutes before the police
were at the door, once I called them. The sirens, we couldn't
have been sitting more than a minute before they were there.
at that time. She
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Q: Do you remember any other notes? The book alleges there were
notes to Dulles and his sister there.
A: We didn't see any. The only thing on the bed, side table, and
I was only there for a few seconds, didn't touch a thing, but I
was there long enough that when the police came down with the
letter and Shef, I think, took the letter at that point. The had
gotten enough bona fides to get the letter from them for Dick
Helms.
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And, this is only hearsay, but I think I heard through Gould that
Dick had told him that the letter had said in it: "They're after
me." So, I had assumed that it was the polygraph and he was being
reinterrogated by Bruce Solie, I assume, at that time.
Q: There were some allegations, and you read in the book, that he
was homosexual.
� � �
A: At that time, homosexual activity in the Agency was not a big
thing -- if you confessed it. In other words, if, during your
polygraph test . . . I knew several. In fact, Gould Cassal, to my
mind, was a homosexual. He left the Agency very shortly
thereafter. He felt it had wrecked his career. (passage omitted)
Q: Was there any talk at the time, like the book alleges, about
the Soviets?
A: No. Cordelia became just about the number one Cl/CE
investigator and did a lot of work following cases independently,
often, of Angelton, and for the director, Mr Dulles, still. If
she had had any suspicion, she would have told us. What we talked
about that afternoon was his mental state, and they all, the three
women there knew him and Gould knew him, and they all felt he was
depressed. And they knew he had fits of depression before. And
the question was asked, if I remember, did he every say to you,
the girls were all talking, did he ever say to you he was going to
commit suicide. And they all said "no." But they also thought he
was often so deep in depression when they had known him before,
that they were really surprised that he hadn't successed.
Q: Did you ever subsequently find out who he had the meeting
with? Was it another polygraph?
A: No, no, I, my guess is that it was some training meeting.
There was a lot of reorganization going on at that time, and my
guess was it was a weekly or monthly meeting, but with a little
more importance that morning because they were going to discuss
the reorganization.
Q: The say in the book that the police officer, the homicide
detective was well known as a trouble shooter for the Agency. It
didn't give you that impression?
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A: Heavens no. He didn't even know what the hell was going on.
He didn't know what CIA was. Never heard of it before. My
impression of the man was that he wasn't a very bright bulb, quite
frankly.
Q: He said he almost arrested the two of you while you were there
A: I think he was thinking about that. I mean, he was lost.
When I did use the word "intelligence" his mouth dropped open.
And he had a vague idea that this was something that was a little
more than usual. And he did say something, now its coming back, I
have a feeling that he said: That's why I was sent over here in
such a hurry, or something like that. I don't know whether Dick
had called him too, or whether somebody had called a higher up,
and word had come down from the commissioner.
Q: The man who wrote this section, William Corson, it has been
alleged that he was a trouble shooter for Allen Dulles, he was an
unofficial aide.
A: The face is familiar. I don't know where I've seen him. I've
seem him somewhere before.
Q: He was a Marine Corps officer before and was in Naval
Intelligence.
A: It may be, I spent three and a half years with the SOD,
Special Operations Division, and we had contact with all kinds of
ex-military types. One of my jobs was to write exposes of
exposes. My job as intelligence chief was when this kind of a
story would come out that involved any of the paramilitary ops, i
had to go and say, prepare for my chief the answer he would give
if there were any news queries, what he was allowed to answer. ,
Particularly about the arms dealers. This was in the early
seventies.
Q: Did Trento try to contact you?
A: No, no one ever tried to contact me. (passage omitted) There
are lots of stones unturned. I went back through my list of names
of people who would have had knowledge, and none of them appear in
the book. Of courses, Dick helms. He was a close personal friend.
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Gordon Stewart Hugh Cunningham and
Jim's predecessor He was the first chief of
training when it was combined OSO/OPC. I was hired by OPC and we
had that great split in those days. That's one of the reasons I
didn't know Kronthal that well, was he was on the other side of
the fence. In those days people were very jealous of their
backgrounds, and though I had not been in the OSS during the war,
I was MIS. (passage omitted) John Bross chief of
EE, knew Jim well. The other person who was then on the staff of
EE, was Peter Sichel who was involved in the
Berlin thing and Otto John, which ended in his departure from the
Agency; then, I starred Dick Helms first wife. She
was a close friend, and if I remember correctly visited me in
when I was Chief of Station. And we brushed on this whole(b)(1)
ing. And my memory is she, was a good friend of Cordelia's and(m3)
We talked over old times and old names, common
(passage omitted)
friends.
Q: I guess the bottom line for us, as you mentioned, was that
there was no inkling that you were aware of that he had anything
to do with the Soviets, espionage, or anything along those lines.
A: I'm absolutely convinced that Cordelia, with her background,
would have explained to us that, what we were told, that was that
he said "they're after me" was because there was an investigation
going on. She would have been right in the middle of that
investigation.
Q: Was there any thought that he had been involved with the Nazis
while in Germany, that whole part of the story?
A: This I would doubt seriously. The business with the art? I
can't understand what that's all about, because, though I didn't
know him very well. I had been involved with the art stuff as
MIS. My room in Munich was decorated with the Durer portrait of
the man in the yellow coat. (passage omitted) The unit I
belonged to with the military was an intelligence assault force
and our job was to seize intelligence objectives, and they
included the art treasurers of Germany. And, I can't imagine
though it's possible -- that his suicide was over just that.
(passage omitted)
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Q: There was an investig k in 1951 and some homosexual
allegations uncovered out . . . and this list of people (W(1)
had gotten to Senator McCarthy, and that was a contributing facto(b)(3)
as well. If he was depressed about the polygraph and such. Is
there any indication of that at the time?
A: That may have very well have been part of it, but McCarthy
didn't come up that day. (passage omitted;
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