DAY 071 - 17 NOVERMBER 2000

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 06491302
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 13
• Document Creation Date: March 9, 2023
• Document Release Date: September 8, 2021
• Case Number: F-2013-01005
• Publication Date: November 17, 2000

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24 MR. TURNBULL: Witness number 588, please, My
25 Lords, John Scott Orkin.
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1 THE WITNESS: JOHN SCOTT ORKIN, sworn
2 LORD SUTHERLAND: I notice Advocate Depute,
3 the screens still seem to be operative. I don't know
4 if anything is being fed outside. It shouldn't be, of
5 course.
6 MR. TURNBULL: If Your Lordships would just
7 give me a moment, I'll confirm.
8 The appropriate arrangements are in place, My
9 Lords.
10 LORD SUTHERLAND: There must be a new system
11 in place, then. Very well. Chief turn.
12 Q For the purposes of these proceedings, are
13 you known as John Scott Orkin?
.14 A That's correct.
15 Q Are you an officer of the Central
16 Intelligence Agency of the United States of America?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q How long have you worked with the Central
19 Intelligence Agency?
20 A About 30 years.
21 Q Could you tell us if you have any
22 professional qualifications, please?
23 A I have a bachelors degree in electrical
24 engineering.
25 Q And is there a particular function that you
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1 perform within the Central Intelligence Agency?
2 A My function is to perform the analysis of
3 technical devices used by terrorist organisations.
4 4 For, how long have you performed that
5 function?
6 A Since 1983.
7 Q And in examining such devices, do you 15repare
8 reports?
9 A I do.
10 Q Who else within the Central Intelligence
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11 Agency performs such examinations and prepares such
12 reports?
13 A No one else.
14 Q And so since 1983 have you examined every
15 such device recovered by the Central Intelligence
16 Agency?
17 A That's correct, I have.
18 Q In addition to this experience, are you given
19 the opportunity to examine items gathered by other
20 intelligence agencies?
21 A There have been occasions where other
22 organisations have submitted devices, yes.
23 Q And do you exchange reports on items
24 recovered with other intelligence agencies?
25 A With some, yes.
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1 Q Are those agencies soley within the United
2 States, or do they include foreign agencies?
3 A �There are some foreign government agencies as
4 well.
5 Q And is it through a combination of your own
6 examinations and reading of such reports that you build
7 up your expertise?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Can you explain to us, to begin with, please,
10 perhaps, a simplistic matter. How is a timing device
11 used in conjunction with a detonator and an explosive?
12 A Quite simply, a timing device is used to
13 provide a delay between the time power is applied to
14 the circuitry and the time that power is applied to the
15 detonator to trigger the device.
16 Q Are there devices other than timers that can
17 be used to detonate explosives?
18 A There are a number of trigger devices, they
19 can be mechanical devices, contact closure, light
20 sensitive devices, barometric pressure we talked about,
21 radio controlled, remote controlled systems, that sort
22 of thing.
23 Q All right. In your experience, have you come
24 across timing devices used in conjunction with
25 explosives where the timing device has been adapted
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1 from another appliance?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Can you give me some examples of that sort of
4 timing device?
5 A I think such as kitchen timers, which provide
'6 a few minutes to -- and maybe up to 60 minutes time
7 delay, commercial travel alarm clocks can be adapted to
8 that application, wrist watches, new digital wrist
9 watches can be lied in that configuration.
10 Q All right. And on other occasions have you
11 come across the use of custom-made timing devices in
12 conjunction with explosives?
13 A Yes, several varieties.
14 Q In your experience, have you come to know a
15 type of timer called the ice cube timer?
16 A Yes, I am familiar with that.
17 Q Can I ask you to look, please, at a document
18 on the screen with me, Production 1719, at image 1,
19 please. Perhaps we could expand this. Thank you.
20 Do you recognise this as the first page of a
21 report prepared by you?
22 A Yes, that's my report.
23 Q And does it follow upon your examination of
24 the items described in the report?
25 A That's right.
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1 Q And does this report include an analysis of a
2 type of device known as an ice cube timer?
3 A Yes, there was three devices, one of which
4 was the ice cube timer.
Q Thank you. Is the ice cube timer a custom
6 built or adapted device?
7 A That's a custom built device.
8 Q Can can we move to image 2, please. What do
9 we see in the photograph there?
10 A Yes, that is an ice cube timer.
11 Q Thank you. And is that the ice cube timer
12 which forms the basis of this report?
13 A, That's correct, yes.
14 Q Can you read to me, please, from the sentence
15 above the photograph to the end of the page.
16 A Immediately above the photograph?
17 Q Yes, please.
18 A As can be seen, are all crudely potted in an
19 epoxy like material for environmental and mechanical
20 protection.
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21 Q And then from the below the photograph?
22 A Normal operation of the timers would be to
23 connect a battery to the terminals and place the switch
24 in the on position. After the timing cycle is
25 completed, a small incadescent lamp will light and can
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1 be seen through the transparent potting material. This
2 test phase is very important for these timer designs
3 since it conditions the timing capacitor and will tend
4 to stabilize the time delay as discussed below.
5 Q And the last --
6 A After the test, the switch should be turned
7 off, which will reset the timer circuit. The detonator
8 can now be attached to the yellow wires and the device
9 deployed.
10 Q �Thank you. Can we move through, please, to
11 image 4, and to the bottom of the page. Thank you.
12 And at the bottom of the page are we dealing
13 with timer number 1, as we've just seen in the
14 photograph?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Could you read to me the two paragraphs at
17 the bottom of that page?
18 A As shown in figure 1, this timer was potted
19 using a very crude mould. The device measures 37
20 millimetres long, 26 millimeters wide, 23 millimetres
21 high. The weight of the timer is 29 grammes.
22 Figure 4 shows the ice cube timer after it
23 was depotted.
24 Q Could I ask you to pause for a second,
25 Mr. Orkin.
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1 Can I ask you to read a little more slowly,
2 please. You'll appreciate that the evidence is being
3 translated?
4 A Figure 4 shows the ice cube timer after it
5 was depotted. An etched printed circuit board is used
6 which would require a small laboratory facility to
7 fabricate. The components were mounted and soldered by
8 hand.
9 Q ,Can we move now on to the next page, image
10 5.
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11 And do we see there the figure 4 to which
12 you've just referred?
13 A That's correct. That is the ice cube timer
14 with the potting material removed.
15 Q Thank you. Could I ask you to read us the
16 text on that page, please.
17 A The schematic of this timer is shown in
18 figure 5 and is designated a type A timer. The basic
19 time delay is obtained by charging the capacitor Cl
20 through resistor Rl. When the voltage across Cl
21 becomes great enough; about 6/10th of a volt, the
22 transistor turns on. This fires the silicone
23 controlled rectifier and applies battery voltage across
24 the two output leads. As shown, an incadescent bulb is
25 across the output and will glow at the end of the
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1 timing cycle. This serves as a test of proper circuit
2 operation. Note that the switch in the off position
3 discharges Cl so that a new timing cycle can be started
4 immediately after the test. Operation current for
5 timer number 1 was approximately 1.8 microampers.
6 Q And have you then drawn something below the
7 text that you've just read?'
8 A Yes, figure 5 is the schematic diagram for
9 that timer.
10 Q Thank you. Can you help me to understand the
11 type of electronics employed by this timer?
12 A Quite simply, the time delay is based on
13 slowly charging capacitor through -- the capacitor Cl
14 through a very large resistor R1, which allows a very
15 small current to flow, and the larger the capacitor,
16 the larger the resistor, the larger the time that it
17 takes to charge up.
18 As an analogy, I used a -- the idea of a cup
19 that is slowly being filled with water, okay. So think
20 of a just a trickle of water slowly going into the
21 cup. When the cup fills, then the output can fire and
22 trigger the device. The problem with these devices is
23 that the capacitytors have a problem with what we call
24 leakage current, so think of a small pinhole in the
25 bottom of the cup. Some of the water is dripping. So
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1 it takes a little longer to fill the cup because of
2 that. But it also limits the maximum amount of time
3 delay that you can achieve with this kind of a device.
4 Q Do some timers employ what's known as a
5 digital electronics?
6 A Some timers do. This is not.
7 Q What type of electronics is this?
8 A This is simply analog electronics.
9 Q Did you say that there was a printed circuit
10 board used in connection with this timer?
11 A Yes, a very simple one.
12 Q Do we see it in figure 4?
13 A We see the top of the circuit board, the
14 components are mounted on it.
15 Q How sophisticated was the circuit board?
16 A Fairly simple. It's the sort of thing that
17 could be made in any small electronics shop, or even --
18 even in a hobbyist type configuration.
19 Q Is the time delay available with the ice cube
20 timer adjustable?
21 A It's somewhat adjustable at time of assembly
22 by the selection of the values of the capacitor and the
23 resistor. It's limited to generally less than 60
24 minutes.
25 Q -I see. And once constructed, is it
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1 thereafter capable of being adjusted?
2 A No. It's not adjusted by the user at all.
3 Q Does this type of timer provide an accurate
4 delay period?
5 A Not really, because of the problem of the
6 leakage that I alluded to. That is susceptible to
7 changing with the age of the components, of the
8 temperature of the components, and several other
9 factors so that -- it's not very reliable time delay.
10 Q Is this type of timer affected by the
11 temperature change within its environment?
12 A I'm sorry, by the temperature?
13 Q Change within its environment?
14 A Yes, very much so.
15 Q I see. Is it a stable timing device, then?
16 A No. Even repetitive operations will provide
17 different times during by -- as much as a couple of
18 minutes ^.
19 Q Can I ask you to look back with me at the
20 first page of this report, image 1.
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21 Do we see that in the paragraph headed,
22 "conclusions", you tell us that none of the timers
23 provides an accurate time delay?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Large variations in timing can be expected of
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1 the designs used in these timers, one timer provided a
2 delay of 2.7 hours on the first test, followed by a
3 delay of only 29 minutes on the ,Second test.
4 Did you perform timing tests for the number 1
5 ice cube timer that we've been discussing?
6 A Yes, I did. They should be a part of that
7 report.
8 Q Could we look to image 6, please. And do we
9 see at the top of the page --
10 A At the top of the page.
11 Q Could we have the page a little further
12 down. Thank you.
13 I am sorry. My mistake. Scroll up. Can we
14 see right to the top of the page:
15 Do we see there that you've tabulated the
16 results of the timing tests using this timer?
17 A That's right. This is for the ice cube
18 timer.
19 Q Could you read those to us, please?
20 A Maximum time was 54.5 minutes. The minimum
21 time achieved was 23.6 minutes. And then that's
22 followed by the effects of temperature, nominal 39
23 minutes at room temperature. It went -- stayed close
24 to that, at 0 degrees centigrade to 38.7 minutes, but
25 15 degrees centigrade it rose to 62.3 minutes.
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1 Q Are you aware from your experience of
2 occasions on which an ice cube timer has been used in
3 conjunction with another device, such as a barometer?
4 A My only knowledge of that is the device that
5 was recovered in Germany in 1988.
6 Q Is that what you would understand to be the
7 Autumn Leaves inquiry?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Thank you. Can you understand what the
10 purpose of using an ice cube timer in conjunction with
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11 a barometric device would be?
12 A My understanding would be to guarantee that
13 the target, being an aeroplane, was airborne before the
14 timer was started.
15 Q I see. And why would the ice cube timer on
16 its own not be sufficient for that purpose?
17 A Well, the time delay being as short as it is,
18 there probably would not be time to -- between the time
19 that it was introduced into the aircraft for the
20 aircraft to even become airborne.
21 Q I see.
22 A Before it discharged.
23 By the 1980s, were digital timers available?
24 A Yes, very much so.
25 Q Was it common for you to be asked to examine
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1 digital timers --
2 A From the mid-1980s we saw several varieties
3 of digital timers.
4 Q Can I ask you to look for me, please, at
5 Label 595. Do you recognise that type of object?
6 A That certainly looks like a variety of the
7 ice cube timer.
8 Q Thank you. Can I ask you to look at a
9 circuit diagram that was drawn by a scientist who
10 examined that timer, Production 1665, image D1,
11 please.
12 And is it possible, operator, to also show us
13 Production 1719, image 5.
14 Now, we see -- thank you. We can see to the
15 right of the screen the circuit diagram that you
16 mentioned a moment or two ago?
17 A That's correct. .
18 Q Can you now look at the other circuit diagram
19 and tell me whether or not it is the same as yours?
20 A Yes, they are both the same.
21 Q Thank you. Can we close those productions,
22 please, and ask I ask you now to look at Label 420.
23 Well, if it's not here, it doesn't matter.
24 Let me do it another way.
25 Can I ask you to look at Production 284, at
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1 image 1, please.
2 Do you recognise this as another report
3 prepared by you?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And if you look to image 2, do we see there
6 photographs of the timer that's the subject of this
7 report?
8 A Yes, indeed.
9 Q Was there-a particular geographical name that
10 you referred to this timer by?
11 A The Togo timer. That's where it was
12 recovered.
13 Q Thank you. Can we go back to image 1. And
14 can I ask you to read to me the summary and conclusions
15 on the front of the page.
16 A The timer generates accurate, crystal/
17 controlled delays over a range of 1 to 99 minutes in
18 one minute steps or 1 to 99 hours in 1 hour steps.
19 Design and assembly are generally professional,
20 suggesting a well-equipped facility and trained
21 personnel were used. Two errors were made in the
22 printed circuit board routing, but only one was caught
23 and repaired (a well-done repair). The other error can
24 cause, at most, a 6 second error in the delay. Surface
25 mount components predominate. Physical space and
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1 circuit trace provisions exist to expand the range from
2 2 decades, meaning 1 to 99, up to 4 decades, should be
3 1 to 9999, but the required components are not
4 installed. Whether this is a modified commercial or a
5 custom device, cannot be determined.
6 Q When did you prepare this report, Mr. Orkin?
7 A This was prepared early 1988.
8 Q I see. What did you mean by that last
9 sentence that you've just read to us?
10 A We had seen some kit timer, electronic kits
11 that were available to hobbyist to build, and we
12 thought that perhaps this might be one of those.
13 Q I see. And what did you have in mind when
14 you used the term whether this is a modified commercial
15 or a custom device can't be determined?
16 A That sort of a thing is a commercial kit that
17 was available to purchase over the counter.
18 Q I see. Can I ask yOu to look with me at
19 image 3, please.
20 And did we see a photograph now showing an
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21 internal view of the timer?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Could you read to me the text above the
24 photograph.
25 A A smaller printed circuit board is mounted
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1 directly --
2 Q I'm sorry. From the very top. From the
3 first line?
4 A From the top.
5 Control switches and labels are on the front
6 panel. Each label is etched copper, identical to a
7 circuit trace (except no components are connected).
8 Solder mask covers the entire panels. The controls
9 are: 2 thumbwheel switches labelled TIME. One slide
10 switch labelled on/off, one slide switch labelled
11 hours/minutes. One push button momentary contact
12 switch labelled TEST. One red Light Emitting Diode or
13 LED path inside surface of the front panel has circuit
14 traces etched and surface mount components installed.
15 Solder mask also covers this surface. Traces of
16 conductor along the edges indicate shear lines were
17 made when the conductor pattern was etched. These
18 sheer lines indicate where the board is to be cut.
19 A smaller printed circuit board is mounted
20 directly to the thumbwheel switches. As seen in figure
21 3, this board is a different colour, lighter, and has
22 no solder mask. And again surface mount components are
23 installed.
24 Q Thank you. What type of electronics are
25 employed in this timer?
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1 A This is a digital circuit.
2 Q Is it variable delay available with this
3 timer?
4 A Yes, it's user selectable by the thumbwheel
5 switches on the front panel.
6 Q Is it an accurate timer?
7 A Very accurate, to within 10th of second over
8 many hours of delay.
9 Q Is it protected by its surrounding
10 temperature?
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11 A Not really, because of the crystal control
12 Q You mentioned that surface mount technology
13 was used. How modern was circuit mount technology in
14 1988?
15 A At that time it was fairly new, state of the
16 art.
17 Q And you mentioned that solder mask had been
18 applied to the printed circuit board?
19 A Yes, both sides had the green solder masking
20 applied.
21 Q Is this what you would term an adapted device
22 or a custom built device?
23 A Looking back at it today, it's a custom built
24 device.
25 Q Can I now ask you to bring yourself up to
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1- date and to think back over the years of experience
2 that you've had with me. Have you seen more than one
time of ice Cube timer in your years of experience?
4 A We've seen varieties in the physical size and
5 shape of ice cube timers. Generally the same type of
6 thing.
7 Q I see. Have you ever seen an ice cube timer
8 that used solder mask on the board?
9 A No, never.
10 Q Is it even proper or accurate to call what's
11 within the ice cube timer a printed circuit board?
12 A Yes, it is a circuit board, but it's a fairly
13 simple one.
14 Q Is the board in the ice cube timer printed?
15 A I believe so, yes.
16 Q All right. Before preparing the report on
17 the timer that we see on the screen, had you ever
18 encountered a custom built timing device that employed
19 solder mask?
20 A No, not a timer with solder masking.
21 Q And since preparing this report that's on the
22 screen in 1988, have you ever since encountered a
23 custom built timing device that employed solder mask?
24 A No, I haven't seen one since then, besides
25 the MST-13.
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1 Q This timer you called the MST-13, did you, see
2 photographs, Production 272, at one stage? Could we
3 see Production 272, please. Image 8, please.
4 Do you remember seeing this amongst a group
5 of other photographs?
6 A Yes. Yes. These were field photographs.
7 Q Yes. And did you understand that they were
8 taken in Senegal?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And do they also show an MST-13 timer?
11 A They show the MST-13 timer more as we
12 expected to see it.
13 Q And what do you mean by that?
14 A In that it has all four thumbwheel switches
15 installed on the front panel, the corners have been cut
16 out on the cut lines �that were indicated on the circuit
17 board to be able to place it into a plastic box.
18 4_ Yes. Now, apart from the MST-13 timer that
19 features in your report and these photographs, have you
20 ever seen another MST-13?
21 A No, only these two are the only two I've
22 seen.
23 Q Have you ever been asked to examine a further
24 recovered sample?
25 A No. Only the one.
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1 Q And have you ever seen a report of the
2 examination of an MST-13 timer by any other agency?
3 A No.
4 Q Could you look for me at Label 420 now, ,
5 please. And is that the timer that features in your
6 report?
7 A It certainly looks like it.
8 Q Thank you. Can I ask you, then, to consider
9 something with me. Can I you to consider with me, on
10 the one hand, an ice cube timer like the one I showed
11 you just a few moments ago and, on the other hand, an
12 MST-13 timer. Which of the two would provide the
13 longer delay?
14 A The MST will provide a much longer delay, up
15 to almost 10,000 hours delay, as opposed to less than
16 an hour for an ice cube timer.
17 Q Which of the two would be more accurate?
18 A The MST-13 would be far more accurate,
19 because it's crystal controlled.
20 Q And which of the two would be more stable?
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21 A The MST-13 would be more stable.
22 Q And does it follow from that, that one or
23 other would be more reliable?
24 A I would think the MST would be much more
25 reliable.
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1 Q Would either one of the two provide more
2 safety to the user?
3 A Yes, because the inherent unpredictability of
4 the ice cube time are makes it very hazardous to use.
5 Q Thank you. If you wanted to hide an
6 electronic timing device within some other object,- is
7 there a particular type of object that would spring to
8 mind as providing a good camouflage for it?
9 A The best place to hide an electronic circuit
10 is within an electronic circuit, where you would expect
11 to see other components, such as a portable radio or
12 cassette player or something like that.
13 Q Yes. And is that because that's a device
14 that has its own electronic components?
15 A Exactly.
16 Q Thank you.
17 LORD SUTHERLAND: Mr. Taylor.
18 MR. TAYLOR: No thank you, My Lord.
19 LORD SUTHERLAND: Mr. Keen.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KEEN:
21 Q I take it, Mr. Orkin that virtually every
22 electronic base on the market now and indeed in the
23 late 1980s would contain an electrical circuit?
24 A By definition, sir.
25 Q And therefore an electrical circuit board?
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1 A I have seen devices without a circuit board.
2 Q They are few and far between?
3 A Very far.
4 Q Yes. Thank you, Mr. Orkin?
5 , MR. TURNBULL: I have no re-examination, My
6 Lords. (1,1:
7 LORD SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Orkin.
8 That's all?
9 A Thank you, My Lord.
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