BRIEF OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND ALEKSEI ADZHUBEI (EDITOR OF IZVESTIA)

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 02215833
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 22
• Document Creation Date: March 8, 2023
• Document Release Date: April 30, 2019
• Case Number: F-2018-02254
• Publication Date: November 30, 1961

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30 November 1961
MEMORANDUM FOR: Mr. McCone
SUBJECT : Brief of Interview between the President
and Aleksei Adzhubei (Editor of IZVESTIA)
1. The first question asked by Mr. Adzhubei was what the President
thought about the present state of Soviet-American relations and what in
his opinion must be done by the American as well as the Soviet Governments
to improve relations between the two countries. The President replied
that the relations today are not as satisfactory as he had hoped they would
be when he first took office. He went on to say that one of the first
things that he did on becoming President was to commit the United States to
an earnest effort to achieve a satisfactory agreement with the Soviet Union
on the cessation of nuclear tests. The President also said that we were
not successful, and we were in fact still at the table in Geneva when,
still negotiating, the Soviet Union resumed its tests, tests which must have
been in preparation for many months, at the very time the conversations
were going on.
2. In regard to the idea that every people shall have the right to
make a free choice as to the kind of government they want, President Kennedy
said that if the people of any country choose to follow a communist system
in a free election after a fair opportunity for a number of views to be
presented, the United States would accept that. The President pointed out
that Mr. Jagan, who was recently elected Prime Minister in British Guiana
is a Marxist, but the United States does not object -- because that choice
was made by an honest election which he won.
3. To the question re idea of concluding a pact of peace between the
United States and the Soviet Union, the President replied that we should
have not only an agreement between our countries, but take those steps which
make peace possible. He said that he didn't think that paper, and words
on paper are as significant as looking at those areas which provide tension
between the two systems and seeing if we can dispel that tension. He felt
that one of those areas now is the problem of Germany and Berlin and if
we could make progress there, then in his opinion, it would provide a most
important step in improving our relations in other areas.
4. To the question re complete disarmament, the President said that
there must be adequate inspection, to make sure that each side is disarming
and staying in accordance with the agreements which they make. The Soviet
Union has stated that it will permit us, or the international body, to inspect
those weapons which are destroyed but will not permit us to carry out an
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inspection to see what weapons remain. One side could destroy a hundred
bombers but still have a thousand or two thousand bombers left. To pro-
vide for orderly disarmament, we have to inspect not only those weapons which
have been destroyed, but also these weapons that remain. Otherwise we do
not have any guarantee of security for either side.
5. President Kennedy made the point that he recognizes that the
Soviet Union can sign any treaty it wishes with the East German authorities.
However, what he finds to be so dangerous is the claim that the treaty
will deny us our rights in West Berlin, rights which we won through the
war, rights which were agreed to by the Soviet Union, the United States,
Britain and France at the conclusion of the war, and which should be con-
tinued. The President went on to say that all Berlin was put under four
power authority by the agreements at Potsdam. East Berlin, which was under
the immediate authority of the Soviet Union, has now been turned over to
East Germany in violation of those agreements. And now the Soviet Union
seeks to place Soviet troops in West Berlin. It does not suggest that
the troops of the other three powers be placed in East Berlin. In other
words, the Soviet Union now seeks to share in the control of West Berlin.
The second point is this question of the rights of access in crossing
East Germany. In the President's opinion, if such an agreement is signed, if
our rights on the communication lines between the West and West Berlin --
which are now governed by the Soviet Union -- are turned over to the East
German authorities, and if the East Germans should interfere with that right
of access, for one reason or another, then this would provide for heightened
tension, the Soviet Union might come to the support of East Germany and
we would find ourselves, instead of having settled this now, once more
face to face.
A. Austin Bricker, Jr.
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� REMORODUM FUK:
In. case you did not have an opportunity to
read the interview between the President and
Adzhubei, attached is a complete transcript,
together with a brief.
(2 Dec4)1)
(DATE)
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-TRANSCRIP T of Interview between the President and Aleksei Adzhubei
(Editor of IZVESTIA). In addition, those present were: Mr. Alex.Alcalovsky
J.,
(Interpreter for the President), .3v..r. Georgi Bolshikov (Interpreter for Mr.
Adzhubei and Editor of USSR Magazine), Mr. Pierre Salinger (Press Secre-
tary to the President), and Mr. Jack Romagna (Shorthand Reporter, White
House Staff). Held in the living room, the President's residence, Hyannis Port,
Massachusetts at 10:20 a.m. (EST), November 25, 1961
MR. ADZHUBEI : Mr. President, I am happy to get this interview from you,
and I would like to tell you quite frankly that your election to the high post of
President of the United States office was met with great hope by public opinion
in our country. In connection with this, I would like to ask you the following
question �
� THE PRESIDENT: May I just say that I appreciate very much your coming to
the United States. I also appreciate the opportunity to talk, through you and
through your newspaper, to the people of the Soviet Union. I think that com-
munication, an exchange of views, an honest report of what our countries are
like and what they want and what the people wish, is in the interests of both
our countries and in the interests of , So we are delighted to have this
opportunity. -
MR. ADZHUBEI : I would like to ask you the following question. Mr.- Presi-
dent, during the election campaign, on several Occasions you expressedgood
intentions with respect to the necessity of improving Soviet-American relations.
On the occasion of your Inauguration as President of a great country, - Nikita
Khrush.chev, Chairman of the Council of Banisters of the UPSA., and Leonid
Brezhnev, Chairman of the F re oidiuna of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR in
their message to you, expressed the hope that.by their joint efforts our, coun-
tries. can succeed in..:radically improving our ,.relations and the international
situation. They also expressed confidence that we can, step by step, liquidate
the existing suspicion and distrust, and thus bring cooperation between our
peoples. On its part, the Soviet government is always ready to support any
good endeavor in that direction, and to clo its best for the establishment of a
stable peace in the world, in order that all peoples may live in friendship and
without hatred among them.
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(Transcript - The F resident and Mr. Adzhubei)
Mr. President, what do you think about the present state of Soviet-American
relations, and what in your opinion must be done by the American as well as
the Soviet governments to improve the relations between our two countries?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I would say that the relations today are not as satis-
factory as I had hoped they would be when I first took office. In fact, one of
the first things that I did on becoming President was to commit the United
States to an earnest effort to achieve a satisfactory agreement with the Soviet
Union on the cessation of nuclear tests. As a rssult of that effort, at the end
of 1\�arch, we sent our representatives, along with Great Britain% to Geneva
for the first time with a complete treaty which we tabled for discussion. I had
hoped that this would be one area where we could make real progress. It would
lessen the contamination of the air, it would be a first step towards disarma-
ment, and I felt that if we could achieve an agreement in this area, we could
then move on to the other areas of disarmament which required action.
vie were not successful. And, as you know, we were in fact still at the table
in Geneva in August when, still negotiating, the Soviet Union resumed its tests,
tests which must have been in preparation for ztany months, at the very time
that the conversations were going on. So that has been a disappointment.
In addition, Berlin and Germany have become I think, areas of heightened
crisis since the Vienna meeting, and I think extremely dangerous to the peace,
which I am sure
I know -�- both of our people want.
I think that the Soviet Union and the United States should live together in peace.
We are large countries, energetic people, we are steadily providing in both
our countries an increase in the standard of living. If we can kikep the peace
for twenty years, the life of the people of the Soviet Union and the life Of the
people of the United States will be far richer and will be far happier as the
standard of living steadily rises,
Where we feel the difficulty comes is the effort by the Soviet Union to com-
munize, in a sense, the entire world. If the Soviet Union were merely seeking
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to protect its own national interests, to protect its own national security, and
would permit other countries to live as they wish -- to live in peace -- then I
believe that the problems which now cause so much tension would fade away.
We want :the people of the. Soviet Union to live in peace we want the same for
our own people. It is this effort to. push outward the communist system., on to
country after country, that represents, I think, the great threat to peace. If
the Soviet Union looked only to its national interest and to providing a better
life for its people under conditions of peace, I think there would be nothing
that would disturb the relations between the Soviet Union and the United States.
MR. ADZHUBEI : That is very interesting. However as a citizen of the Soviet.
Union, as a member of the ComMuniot Party, I cannot agree with you, in that
part of .your answer where. you .are saying that we are trying to "communize"
the world. At the 22nd- Party Congress which, in our opinion, wae. :an historic
event,: we adopted a program of communist development and we said that we are
against any expert of the revolution, but we are also against any export of
counter-revolution. If we turn to facts, . there are many countries in the world
in the affairs of which, from our point of view the United States is interfering.
Yesterday, I saw a T. V. program which was being shown to millions of Ameri-
cans, where your commentator asserted that the whole world is under complete
threat of the communists to capture the world. We would like to see an end
put to this situation.
Our govern:az n.t and our party believe that every people chooses such a system
of government as they like. Austria chose the capitalist way of development,
although American and Soviet troops were there. But Cuba has chosen another
wa.y 9f development. And we would be happy if you, Mr. President, were to
state that the interference in the affairs of Cuba was a mistake. '.7:re hope that
the Cuban people will consolidate their own way of life -- as well as the:D
n-dnican Republic, Ecuador, Brazil and -many other countries.
THE :.,---RESIDENT : May I just say, without getting into a debate, tle.2.t the
United States supports the idea that every people shall have the right to make a
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free choice aa to the kind of government they want. In the case of Cuba, let me
remind you that the Castro revolution was originally supported by the great
majority of the people. When Castro was leading the revolution, the statement
was made that there would be free elections, and freedom for the people, and
progress for the people. But Castro has not kept that commitment. Until the
present government of Cuba will allow free and honest elections, in our opinion,
it cannot claim to represent the majority of the people. That is our dispute
with Cuba.
Mr. Jagan, on the other hand, who was recently elected prime Minister in
British Guiana is a Marxist, but the United States doesn't object -- because
that choice was made by an honest election, which he won.
If the people of any country choose to follow a communist system. in a free
election, after a fair opportunity for a number of views to be presented, the
United States would accept that. What we find to be objectionable, and a threat
to the peace, is when a system is imposed by a small militant group by subver-
aion, infiltration, and all the rest.
If the Soviet Union and this country could develop their own resources, and if
you permitted the peoples of the world to develop in the way they wish to de-
velop, then, if any nation should choose a communist system, we would recog-
nize and accept that. And if they chose another system, then we would hope
that you would recognize and accept that, too. If we could get that on both
sides, I believe the Soviet Union and the United Stetes, which have so much to
gain from peace, could live in peace.
MR. ADZFIUBEa : I understand you, Mr. President, and I am very happy to
hear these words from you, because as you know, the future of the World de-
pends in many respects on the relations between the United States and our coun-
try. Let the people decide what way of development they want to choose. How-
ever I would like to draw your attention to the following historical parallel.
When the Bolsheviks, headed by V. I. Lenin, -came to power, all the capitalist
world was shouting that they were plotters and that there was; no freedom in
IviORE
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zhubei)
in
Russia but/44 years our country became a great power. But this is not the
issue. I would like to ask you another question --
THE PRESIDENT: You are a newspaper man and a politician.
MR. ADZHUBEI : In our country every citizen is a politician, because we like
our country very much. The young and the old like the socialist system of our
country and we are ready to fight for it until its victorious end. You are proud
of your country, Mr. President, and we are also very much proud of our own
country, and we are very proud of our party, and we are proud of V. I. Lenin.
Mr. President, sometimes its said that in order to improve the relations be-
tween our countries, it is necessary to start with the settlement of small prob-
lems. Others believe that too many small issues have accumulated and that
perhaps it would be better to start with a big act. We believe that such a big act
was the visit by Nikita Sergeyevich Zhruslichev to the United States in 1959. Bi
unfortunately the results of that trip were not completely satisfactory. Mr.
President, what is your attitude toward the idea of concluding a pact of peace
between the United States and the Soviet Union? That would be a great step
forward.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we should have not only an agreement between our
countries, but take those steps which make peace possible. I don't think that
paper, and words on paper, are as significant as looking at those areas which
provide tension between our two systems and seeing if we can dispel that tensile;
One of those areas now is the problem of Germany and Berlin. If we could mak.
progress there, then in my opinion it would provide a most important step in
improving our relations in other areas.
I stated that if we had be en able to get an agreement on the nuclear tests cessa-
tion, that would lead to other agreements on disarmament. If we can make an
agreement successfully which provides peace in Central Europe, if we can con-
clude our efforts in Laos and insure a government and a country which are
neutral and independent, as Chairman Khrushchev and I agreed at Vienna, then
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we would be able to move intoother areas of tension. I believe, as I-have
said, if vie can now make an agreement on a satinfactory basis on Berlin and
Germany, which is the most critical area -- because it represents a matter
of great interest to both our countries, and great concern to our peoples -- then
we could take other steps. If we can solve the problem of Germany and Ber-
lin, I believe we can find our relations substantiey improved.
MR. A.DZHUBEI.: Thank you, Mr. President, Ws is a most worthy thought.
-Especially because, as I underatand you, you int id to talk seriously on these
problems with oureoverrae- nt. Let me say that ea German eroblem is of
ereat inauortance to our country, for many reasoree. Not only for strictly po-
litical reasons, and not only because of prectige cen.siderations. As you know
we have allies -- Poland, Czechoslovakia, and a rmbe.r of other countries.
However, to date we haven't heard any sober voices from the West affirming
the integrity of the borders. existing in Europe and it would be very important
to hear that. But there is also another aspect to the German -problem. In our
country, in the Soviet Union there is not a single feeePy that did not lose some
the 5:'70
kin in the war. You know we are trying to put oulea.oale of thc last war in
Central Europe. But we do not wish only to play the role Of a political fireman,
as it were, though it is very important. In the heart of every Soviet citizen,
in the soul of every Soviet citizen, there are, as you know, coals still burning
from the last war and they are burning his soul and does not let him sleep
quietly. Thus, soletion of the question of a peace treaty is the hope and tran-
quillity in the heart of every Soviet man. After all we are still singing songs
about those who did not come home from the war. I-know that you participated
in the war, that you are a hero of the war, and this is why I am talking to you
in such lofty words. But this, if you wish, is a side-line.
Mr. .'resident, in 1953, if I am not mistaken, our governne nt suggested to the
government of the United States -- of course, the previous administration was
in power then -- that the trade relations between our countries be normalized.
Now, as you know, the trade relations between our countries are in a very
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� (Transcript - The President and Mr. Adzhubei)
lamentable condition. Before I left for the United States, I had a conversation
with my friends frori the Ministry of Foreign Trade, and they asked me to in-
quire with you whether there are any prospects of improving the tradereIe.tiens
between our countries. After all there is a very old truth: toifether
together with the exchange of goods, there also come better v.qations among
peoples.
THE; PRESIDENT Let me say that I know that the Soviet Union suffered aore
from World War II than any country. It represented a terrible blow, and the
casualties affected every family, including many of the families of those now
in government.
I will say that the United States also suffered, theugh not so heavily as the
Soviet Union, quite obviously. My brother was killed in Europe. My sister's
hu sband was killed in Europe.
The point is that that war is now over. We want to prevent another war arising
out of Germany. I think the important thing between the United States and the
USSR is not to create the kind of tension and pressure, which in the name of
settling World War II increases the chances of a conflict between the Soviet
Union and its allies on the one hand and the United States and its allies on the
other. What we should attempt to do is work out a solution through negotiation
which will make it possible to keep the peace in Central Europe. And that is
the aim of this government.
Now in regard to trade, one of the first things I did on becoming President was
to change governmental policy which provided for the admission of crab meat.
This was not a matter of great dollar value, but had some symbolic importance,
and was a matter which Chairman Khrushchev had spoken about on several
occasions.
� My own judgment is that, if we can solve the problems that we are now talking
about, particularly in Berlin, and ease the general tension, trade will then in-
crease. What has diminished trade in recent months has been the difficulty
IVIORE
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which we have experienced in Germany and Berlin. I would hope that trade
could be expanded, and in my judgment it would expand irarilecliately, if we
can bring about a peaceful and satisfactory solution to the interests of all in
Germany and Berlin.
your words
MR. ADZHUBEI : I shall communicate/to our !readers with a feeling of satis-
faction. Vie have always thought and still think: of the Ar :.e :cleans as the realist.
It is your energy, your realistic approach, that has helped you to create such a
wealthy country. But now I would like to ask you frankly, Mr. Presicient,
be cause this idea was expressed by you in several instances, whether you
seriously think that the social changes which are happening in the world today
are the result of actions in which Moscow has its hands? I would like to rernin(
you of one thing. You know, in France when the bourgeois revolution won, the
aristocratic Europe accused France of every mortal sin. ',Men the October
revolution won, all the world of the rich condeMned that revolution. But this
revolution won: You mentioned that a Marxist came to power in British
Guiana. Do you think that events occurred there according to our instructions?
Of course, we can't give you any assurances that there won't be social changes'
in the world, although you will call it the result of the "hands'l of Moscow.
THE PRESIDENT : Let rne say, as I indicated, if the people of these countrieL
make .a free choice, that they prefer the communist or socialist or any other
kind of system, then the United States and the people of the United States accept
that. That is why I gave the example of British Guiana. But of course I do not
hold and I do not say that the Soviet Union is responsible for all the changes
that are corning in the world. For example, since the end of 7/orld Vjar II, the
British'Er_apire has been turned into independe t states, I think 15 of theri-i. The
French community has been turned into 21 independent states. There are
many changes in the world. Wertern Europe has joined closer together in the
Common Market. These are not the result of the comr.-iunists' efforts. There
are many changes, as I have said, throughout the world. Feople want to live it
different ways. That is what we want, also. V they have a fair opportunity to
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make a choice, if they choose to support cornriunisn-i, we accept that. What we
object to is the attempt to il-npose comraunisrn by force, or a situation where
once a people may have fallen under con-anunisra, the communists do not give
them a fair opportunity to make another choice.
We had been under the impression that the Yalta Agreement and the Potsdam
Agreement provided for a free choice for the peoples of Eastern Europe. They
do not, in our opinion, today, have a free choice. You may argue that they
may want to live under communism, but if they do not, they are not given the
opportunity to change.
We believe that if the Soviet Union -- without attempting to impose the corn-
will permit
munist system -- /the people of the world to live as they wish to live, relations
between the Soviet Union and the United Stat ae will then be very' satisfactory, and
our two peoples, which now live in danger, will be able to live in peace. and with
a greatly increased standard of living. And I bd ieve we have such vast eco-
nomic opportunities now in both of our countries that we should consider how
we can get along, and not attempt to impose our views, one on the other or on
anyone else.
MR. ADZHUBEI Of course, Mr. President, I did not expect in such a short
period of time I would succeed in converting you to another belief -- just as' you
-did not expect to convert me. You have talked with our Chairman, the First
Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communi t' Party of the Soviet Union,
and he did not succeed in convincing you, nor did he try to do so. This, .as you
know, is a matter of personal outlook. One man may consider certain elections
to be free, while another would consider those elections non-democratic: For
example, in a number of countries of Latin America, great revolutionary
� changes are taking place. For a long period of time you considered that Tru-
jillo was elected in a dernocratic�way. You have been saying the "same about the
"regime of the Shah of Iran as well. But let us not engage in an argument and
let us turn to the next question.
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MR, ADZI-IU__;EI : Mr. President, reay I ask you the following question? It
is well known that the Soviet government has declared its readiness to accept
any proposal of the Western powers on international control and inspection, if
agreement on general and complete diearrearnent is reached. At the r an-e time,
the Soviet government does not exclude the possibility of reaching agreev-ent
on a number of measures
which may decrease the danger of war and which could
be effected in the nearest future. Such proposals are, for instance, the propo-
ealc:, on the freezing of military budgets, renunciation of the use of nuclear wea-
pons, the conclusion of a non- a_grecsion pact between NATO and the -.Vareave
act countries, withdrawal of foreign troops from the territories of other
countries, the establieln-nent of a nuclear free zonesor measures against the
danger of surprise attack. Want, in your views, are the prospects of general
and complete disarmament, and of decreasing international tensions?
THE I-RESIDENT : Inasmuch as the Soviet Union and the United States agreed
in the declaration of principles in September, at the end of the McCloy-Zorin
talks, on the goal of general and complete disarmennent, the oroblen, now be-
comes an attempt to implement that goal, stage by stage. The Soviet Union and
the United States have a basic disagreement which must be resolved on this
question. ;Te believe that there must be adequate inspection, to make cure
that each side is disarming and sta3ring in accordance with the agreements which
they make. The Soviet Union has stated that it will permit us, or the interna-
tional body, to inspect those weapons which are destroyed but will not permit
us to carry out an inspection to see what weapons remain. One side could des-
troy a hundred bombers but still have a thousand or two thousand bombers left.
If you are really going to provide for orderly dicaeneaeeent, it eeenes to me you
have to inspect not only those weapons which have been destroyed but also
these weapons that remain. Otherwise we do not have any guarantee of security
for either side. If we can agree to an effective inspection system so that each
country can know that the other is living up to its agreementr then, in Ley opin-
ion, we can move into general and complete disarmament.
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That is why I thought it so vitally important that we make an agreement on
cessation of nuclear testing as the first step, and then proceed step by step
through atomic weapons, through missiles, through the level of ground forces,
the Navy, and all the rest. If we can get agreement on that, then we can move
toward general and complete disarmament.
I think it would be helpful it NATO and the Warsaw pact ent�Yaged in a commit-
ment to live in peace with each other. I certainly believe we should take Emery
conceivable step to prevent surprise attack. I believe that if the relations be-
tween our countries can be normalized, there will be less military buildup
on. both sides, but we cannot now withdraw our troops frorn Europe, way back
across the Atlantic Ocean, when you merely withdraw your troops to the Soviet
Union which is only a few hundred miles away. That is why we need some
understanding of what is going to be the situation in Eerlin and in Germany. And
that is why I hope negotiations will take place between our governxnents quick/y
and will come to a successful conclusion.
The statement has been made on many occasions that we object to the signing
of a peace treaty, that we regard that as a belligerent act. That is not the
point. It is our view that the statement which the four powers made at Geneva
in 1955 providing for the reunification of Germany represents the soundest
policy. To divide 'a country, to divide a city, to put up a wall in a city, we be-
lieve, only increases tensions rather than diminish therm. And we believe that,
if the Gern-Jan people were permitted to be reunified, adequate steps could be
taken to protect the security of all involved.
Now we recognize that today the i.3oviet Union does not intend to permit reunifi-
cation, and that as long as the Soviet Union has that policy, Germany will not be
reunified, The question now is whether the Soviet Union will sign a treaty with
the East German authorities which will increase tension rat7ler than diminish it.
As I said in my speech at the United Nations, we recognize that the Soviet Union
can sign any treaty it wishes with the cast German authorities. What we find
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to be so dangerous, however, is the claim that that treaty will deny us our
rights in West Berlin, rights which we won throu-';11 the war, rights which were
agreed to by the Soviet Union, the United States, Britain and France at the con-
clusion of the war, and which we believe should be continued. But if you 3ign
a treaty with East Germany and those rights are subject to the wishes of the
East German authorities, it seems to me that that is going to increase tension.
If the Soviet Union attempts in that treaty to turn over jurisdiction over Jest
Berlin to the East German authorities, against the wishes of the people of
Jest Berlin � if the lines of communication and access from West Berlin
to the outside world and the West, are completely under the control cf East
German authorities to cut any time they so wish - then this treaty does not
bring peace, it only increases the danger.
Now I am hopeful that, in the conversations and negotiations which we hope to
have with the Soviet Union, assurances will be given which will permit us to
zontinue to exercise the rights which we now hav in 1,,Vest Berlin, as a result
of the existing four power agreement, and will permit free access in and out
of the city. We do not want to stay in -J'est Berlia if the people there do not
want us to stay. But they want us to stay. .i.-Ther they decide that they don't
want us, we will leave. But as long as they wish us to stay, it seems to me
that the rights which are ours by agreement should be maintained. I am hope-
ful that the Soviet Union will agree with this, and in particular will agree to per-
mit supplies and people to move in and out of West Berlin freely. Then we can
in my opinion, reach a peaceful settlement in the center of Europe, and if we
can reach an agreement on this question, then I lellieve our relations will
greatly improve.
MR. ADZHUBEI : You just answered the question I was going to ask. But I
cannot agree with you. I am not a specialist in the field of disarmament, but
as I understand it, the McGloy-Zorin agreement was a very important step for-
ward, and we hope that the efforts by specialists who will be authorized by our
goveinments will lead to better results, P�d.oi a few words abatitcr:..-nany.
IL ORE
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ubei)
-13-
If I understood correctly the translation, I have heard a very unrealistic term.
I have in mind the terra "east Ger-:_lan authorities". It would be more pleasant
to hear "government of the German Democratic Republic". You don't like the
German Democratic Republic . We don't like the Federal Republic of Gerry-any,
but we have diplomatic relations with the FRG, we have very good trade rela-
tions with it. Th, we are realists. If the governr.:ent of the United atates
were not saying "East Gern-Jan authorities" but were to say "governr..int-of the
GDR", that would be very good and realistic.
And now a second point. We would like to sign a peace treaty together with
our World War II allies, and we hope that it will be so. It would be a great
happiness not only for our government but also for our people. Nobody intends
to turn Wect Berlin over to East Germany. That does not make sense. There
is the GDR and there is the FRG with its capitalist system. Let's sign a peace
treaty and let LIS guarantee freedom for West Berlin by every means -- by
troops of the four powers, by United Nations troops -- and let's thus guarantee
its rights. But this is a problem for future negotiation. Now a Levi words
about access to West Berlin. Why complicate such a simple problem? Com-
munication to West Berlin runs over 100 miles through the territory of the
German Democratic Republic. If one needs to visit West Berlin, if it is neces-
sary to send people, food or other goods there, then it is very elementary to
ask permission for that of the g,overnment of the GDR. Sometimes I feel --
and I am saying this to you very frankly -- that some evil people, are attempting
to complicate siMple things and thus are deliberately creating tension. Yes-
terday, when I was talking with your closest advisers, I gave this example: if
a man has his nervous system extren-,ely strained, he is irritated by every
noise, every every sound and everything i., taken by him very suepiciously. Such a
xnan can create much trouble. We hope that the negotiations which will take
place in the near future, Will be objective, realistic, and will be conducted
in an atmosphere of complete calm.
THE PRESIDENT: May I just make .one brief response? All Berlin was put
under four pov.e r authority by the .agreements at Potsdarii. East Berlin, which
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was under the ireiree ciliate authority of the Soviet U lion., has now been turned
,
over to East Germany in violation of those agreen ents. It is no longer effec-
tively under fou..-power control. And now the 3�Ni-et Union seeks to place Soviet
troops in I7est Berlin. It does not suggest that tb_. troops of the other three
powers be placed in East Berlin. In other words. the, Soviet Union now eeeks
to share in the control of West Berlin. That is tbe first point that is in ques-
tion. The second is this question of the rights of 3. ccesc in crossing East
Germany. As I gather it, you would give the East German authorities -- you
say East German government -- the power to interfere with that traffic. It is
stated that they would not do so, but we have no al surances in Mr. Ulbricht' s
statements which vary frona week to week. In my opinion, if such an agree-
ment is signed, if our rights on the communication lines between the ','('est
and West Berlin -- which are now governed by th( Seviet Union -- are turned
over to the East German authorities, and if the East Germans should interfere
with that right of access, for one reason or anothor, then this would provide
for heightened tension, the Soviet Union rnight cce_le to the support of Easgt
Germany and we would find ourselves, instead of: having settled this now, once
more face to face.
The reason why we have been reluctant to recognize East Gernaany as a sover-
eign power is that we do not recognize the division of Germany. In our opinion
the German people wish to have one united country. If the Soviet Union had
lost the war, the 3ovidt people themselves wouldl object to a line being drawn
through Moscow and the entire country. If we ha(' been defeated in war, we
wouldn't like to have a line drawn down the Missiesippi River. The Germans
want to be united. I think it should be possible to provide for that under con-
ditions which will protect the interests 01 all concerned. But the Soviet Union
believes that it is more in their interest to keep Germany divided.
Now the question is -- given that decision -- can we provide for the prorecdon
of our rights in West Berlin, which were agreed to in 1945 by the Soviet Union,
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-15-
so that this is not a continuing crisis? In attempting to work out a solution of
the problems which came about as a result of World War II, we don't want to
increase the chances of World War III. All we wish to do is maintain a very
limited - and they are a very limited number of troops of the three powers in
West Berlin and to have, for example, an international adminis-tration on the
goods and
Autobahn so that /people can move freely in and out. Then we can have peace
in this area for years. But if East Germany is going to exercise the right of
authority over that access, we are going to have continued tension there --
and I simply do not see, given the strong interests of both of us in having
peace in this part of Europe, why that is a wise decision. I am hopeful instead
that the negotiations which we are anxious to see take place will bring about an
agreement on this area which will recognize fairly the interests of all.
MR. .ADZHUBEI : Mr. President, since I'm talking to you in a very frank an('
friendly manner, I would like to ask you to imagine, at least for a moment,
the following impossible thing. Imagine, that you were an officer, a veteran
of the Soviet Navy, who fought in World War II. You won the war, and then
the very events occurred which are now taking place. One of the parts of
Germany -- the Federal Republic of Germany -- does not recognize the border
which have been established after the war. It is again building up its armed
forces. The Chancellor of that country goes to the United States to talk to the
President of the United States and they have secret talks. The spirit of re -
vanchism is very high in that part of Germany. What would your attitude be
toward this, if you were a veteran of the Soviet Navy?
THE PRESIDENT : If I were a Soviet veteran, I would see that West Germany
now has only 9 divisions, which is a fraction of the Soviet forces. Nine di-
visions. It has no nuclear weapons of its own. It has a very small Air Force
two or three
-- almost no Navy, I think perhaps/submarines. So it is not a military threat.
Its nine divisions are under the international control of NATO, and subject to
the command of the NATO organization, which is made up of 15 countries of
Europe which altogether have, in West Germany now, about 22 or 23 divisions
-- about the same number as the Soviet divisions in East Germany. So that I
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do not see that this country represents a military threat now to the Soviet
Union, even though I recognize how bitter was the struggle in World War II --
in the same way that Japan today represents no theeat to the United States,
even though twenty years ago there were four years of war in the Pacific
against the Japanese. The power of countries changes -- weapons change --
science changes -- without missiles, without nuclear capability, with very few
divisions today, I don't believe West Germany is a military threat.
Then I would look at the power of the United States, and I would look at the power
of the Soviet Union, and I would say that the important thing is for the Soviet
Union and the United States not to get into, a war, which would destroy both of
our systems. So as a Soviet veteran, I would wart the Soviet Union to reach
an agreement with the United States which recognizes the interests and the.
commitments of the United States, as well as our own, and not attempt to en-
force single-handedly a new situaeon upon the United States which would he
against previous commitments we had made. The Soviet Union made a commit-
ment in regard to Berlin in 1945. Germany today' is divided. Gerrnay today
is not a threat to the Soeiet Union militarily.
The important thing is to attempt to reach an accord which recognizes the in-
terests of all; and I believe that can be done with espect to Germany. I
fT,
recognize that there are going to be two Germanies as long as the Soviet Union
C.1.'
(I
believes that that is in her interest. The problem now is to make sure that,
4,04
in any treaty which the Soviet Union reaches. with East Germany, the rights
of the other powers are recognized in Berlin. Th-t's all we're talking about.
We are not talking about encouraging revanchism, building, a great German
military machine, or anything else you mention. In any peace treaty which is
. ,
signed with East Germany, there must be a recognition of the rights of the
United States and the other powers.
Now that does not seem to me to be a threat in any way to the security of the
Soviet Union. That does not provide for any increase in the Wester:a military
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(Transcript The President and Mr. Adzhubei) -17-
forces, which are rather limited there. I think we could have peace in this
century in Central Europe if we can reach an. accord over West Berlin. To
pusue another course in the name of ending World War II -- a course which
threatens to increase the chance of World War III represents a wholly un-
wise policy, for you and for us.
So if I were a Soviet officer and wanted peace, I would think peace can be
won and my country's security can be assured. The Soviet Union is a strong
military power. It has great nuclear capacity. It has missiles, planes --
it has a great number of divisions -- it has countries associated with it. No
one is ever going to invade the Soviet Union again. There is no military power
that can do that. The problem is to make an agreement which will permit us
to have our interests recognized, as well as yours. That should not be beyond
the capacity of us both,
Chairman Khrushchev did not, nor did I, make the arrangements in 1.945 in
regard to Berlin. Our responsibility, given the situation which is a difficult
one is to bring about peace, and I believe it can be done.
In short, if I were a Soviet naval officer, I would feel that the security of the
Soviet Union was well protected, and that the important thing now is to reach
an accord with the United States, our ally during that second war.
MR. ADZHUBEI: Mr. President, I am :about to finish. Of course, you
answered this question not as a veteran of the Soviet armed forces but as
President of the United States, and that is quite natural. However, as I
understand you, Mr. President, you are against West Germany's having nu-
clear weapons at her disposal, or in any degree of control over such weapons?
THE PRESIDENT: The United States, as a matter of national policy, as I
said at the .United Nations will not give nuclear weapons to any and
I would be extremely reluctant to see West Germany acquire a nuclear capacity
of its own. Chancellor Adenauer stated that they would not, in 1954. That is
still the policy of that government, and I think that is the wise policy.
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MR.. ADZHUBEI : But, you know perfectly well, that many top posts in NATO
are occupied by German 'generals, and you know that Europe is very far from
the United States. Don't you think that at some point it might happen that
German generals might become too influential in NATO?
THE PRESIDENT : That is why I believe it to be so important to stress the
West German army is integrated in NATO. NATO is now commanded by an
American; and, in my judgment, as long as German forces are integrated in
NATO -- and NATO is under the control of the 15 NATO countries, none of which
wants another war -- there is security for all. And I think that will continue.
Now if this situation changed, if Germany developed an atomic capability of its
own, if it developed many missiles, or a strong national army that threatened
war, then I would understand your concern, and I would share it. After all,
we have had two wars in Europe, as well as you. But the situation. today, and
the situation for the future, is as I have described it. If it changed, then it
would seem to me appropriate for the United States and the Soviet Union and
others to consider the situation at that time, But it is not that way now, so
why take the risk of having the United States, which is a powerful country, and
the Soviet Union, which is also powerful, getting into difficulty with each ether,
when there is no real threat in Europe to you or to us. I think that we should
look at things as they are in 1961.
You have stated that you are realists. This is not 1939, 1940 or 1941. Look
what has happened. As I said, in the Far East, Japan's strength was entirely
different in those years. China's power was also entirely different. Countries
change. Situations change. Arid we have to be realistic enough to see where
the real danger lies. The real danger today is the fact that both of us possess
in our nuclear,stockpiles the means to impose great devastation upon each
other -- and we are the ones that have the mo-st to lose troth war.
Therefore I think, if we look at it realistically, we should be able to reach an
accord which protects the interests of our two great countries, and permits us
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(Transcript - The President and Mr. Adzhubei), -19-
both to go ahead with increasing our standard of living and meeting other prob-
lems. In the United States in the last 14 years our living standard has increased
40 percent. In the Soviet Union it has gone up sharply. Nobody can benefit
more from peace than the Soviet Union and the United States.
I would hope that rather than attempting to talk about conditions in Germany
as they were twenty years ago, we would look at them as they are today. We
have had peace, really, in Europe for 15 years. The problem now is to see if
we can reach a negotiation which can settle this matter for another 15 years.
Nobody knows what is going to happen in the world over the long run, but at
least we ought to be able to settle this matter of Berlin and Germany.
ADZHUBEI : I thank you for your attention and this time that I took
from your weekend rest.
THE PRESIDENT: I appreciate very much your giving me, as President,
this opportunity to talk to the people of the Soviet Union, and your courtesy
in coming here. I want to emphasize that to the people of this country there
is nothing that would satisfy them more than to see the two countries live at
peace, and the people of the two countries enjoying a steadily increasing
standard of living. I was in the Soviet Union as a student in 1939, and I
understand that there have been many changes, and that the standard of living
of the people is rising. The standards of the people of the United States have
also risen. I am hopeful that this interview will contribute in some degree to
better understanding and to peace. For, I repeat again, our two peoples have t..
the most to gain from peace.
MR. ADZHUBEI Thank you Mr. President.
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