SELECT COMMITTEE TESTIMONY OF 5 FEBRUARY 1974

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 01474422
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 7
• Document Creation Date: December 28, 2022
• Document Release Date: August 7, 2017
• Case Number: F-2007-00094
• Publication Date: February 5, 1974

Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
OLC 74-0196
5 February 1974
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
SUBJECT: Select Committee Testimony of 5 February 1974
1. This, the second day of testimony in executive session
in room 1418, was again held in the office of the Minority Counsel,
Fred D. Thompson; assisting the Minority Counsel were Michael
Madigan and Howard Liebengood. Majority Staff Sam Dash and
James Hamilton sat in intermittently to monitor the session.
Z. Follow ups from previous sessions:
a. I advised Mr. Thompson that Senator Baker
should talk to Mr. Colby about the recalling of
from Saigon to testify before the
Committee. Mr. Thompson said he would do this.
b. Mr. Thompson was provided for Senator
Baker, the complete and partially complete transcript
of the 7 July meeting between General Cushman and
E. Howard Hunt.
c. During the hearing I received a message that
Terry Lenzner was still interested in contacting me
for the purpose of reviewing the Sensitive Supplement
to Volume III. After failing to reach Lenzner early
in the morning, I advised James Hamilton of the request
and Hamilton said that he had advised Lenzner of the
written 1 February 1974 agreement issued by Senator
Baker limiting access to members and the senior staff,
1. e., Dash and Thompson, unless special arrangements
were made with the Chairman and the Vice Chairman
of the Committee.
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
3. Witnesses:
The witnesses scheduled for testimony today were Richard A.
Krueger, Steven Greenwood, Dr. Gottlieb, Thomas Karamessines and
Jake Esterline. Around noon I advised Mr. Esterline's office that due to
the length of the sessions with previous witnesses, he should not plan on
appearing today and we would get word to him when he was rescheduled.
4. Richard A. Krueger:
Mr. Krueger testified from 10:40 a.m. until about 12:30 p.m.
He was an excellent witness and everything went smoothly. Interest was
expressed in the amount of training Hunt was given by in the
use of the camera. (This has been a matter of special interest of
Senator Baker in the past, for reasons which still are not apparent.
5. Steven Greenwood:
_(b)(3)
Mr. Greenwood testified from 1:30 p.m. until 3:30 p.m. His
confusion over dates suggested the existence of a non-existent memorandum.
The memorandum was quite obviously one resulting from Skip Dunn 's
interview of Greenwood and during the questioning counsel agreed to
accept my suggestion to raise Dunn.'s name in this connection and when
this was done, the matter was cleared up.
Mr. Greenwood also related that he had a phone number for
"Edward," and at his own initiative he had made Xerox prints of the pictures
before turning them over to Hunt. (Krueger had told me sometime ago that
he had ordered Xerox copies be made.) iame was
mentioned.
Follow up: Provide the memoranda concerning the Hunt
provisioning which Greenwood typed from his notes for Dr. Gottlieb's
briefing of Thomas Karames sines before the latter's lunch with Howard Hunt
in October 1971. It is possible that counsel will accept a certification by
Greenwood, but failing this, Greenwood will have to appear before the
Committee to so swear. Greenwood is scheduled
(b)(3)
and I told Krueger that he should make
such arrangements. (The Committee will pick up Greenwood's trip expenses.
This reimbursement will be handled between the Committee and the Agency
in a secure fashion with the Agency submitting a bill to the Committee.
OLC will follow up.)
2
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Separate Follow up Item: Fred Thompson said that he had a
report that Bob Woodward of the Washington Post had a prior Agency
association or relationship. Check this out, both current and past.
6. Dr. Gottlieb:
Dr. Gottlieb testified from 3:30 p.m. until 4:15 p.m. This
session went well and Dr. Gottlieb was an excellent witness. Among
other things, Dr. Gottlieb indicated that it was at his initiative that
Tom Karamessines was briefed on the Hunt provisioning prior to
Mr. Karamessines' lunch with Hunt (this conflicts with Mr. Karamessines'
recollection, see below). The counsels showed particular interest in
whether or not a particular segment of the prints or copies of the
photographs by Hunt had been enlarged, but Dr. Gottlieb couldn't add
anything on this. (The Committee will reimburse Dr. Gottlieb for his
travel expenses.)
7. Thomas Karamessines:
Mr. Karamessines testified from 4:22 p.m. until 4:50 p.m.
The session was excellent. Points developed included:
a. Apparently there were two calls to the DDP1s office
concerning the upcoming provisioning of Hunt. One came from
TSD and the other from Karl Wagner. Mr. Karamessines
initially indicated that the call from TSD mentioned that the
individual being provisioned was E. Howard Hunt, but, of
course at that time, the TSD people claimed they did not
know that Hunt was the individual being assisted.
b. Mr. Karamessines believes that he initiated TSDr s
briefing of himself prior to the Hunt lunch.
c. Mr. Karamessines believed that he saw the prints
not Xerox of the pictures, but said this was only the most
cursory review, as was earlier testified by Gottlieb.
d.� Mr. Karamessines distinguished between the activities of
DCS and DODS.
e. Mr. Karamessines also explained the different concept
for DODS before and'after his appointment as DDP.
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
f. Mr. Karamessines also explained his handling of
the Lukoskie handwritten memorandum and that he had
told his people subsequent to the Watergate "not to report
to him on speculation that they had heard."
g. Mr. Karamessines started to go into the details
of the Agee Case, but I interrupted, went off the record
and told him he could describe the case generally but
not to get into details.
8. Robert Mullen:
At the conclusion of our session, I met with Mr. Robert
Mullen and released him from his secrecy agreement solely for the
purpose of the executive interview then to take place at 6:00 p.m.
I told him it was a pleasure to meet him because of all of the fine
things I heard about him from my colleagues, and that we were
certainly appreciative of his past assistance and sorry over the current
developments. Mr. Mullen reciprocated by asking me to give his best
regards to the Agency. He agreed that there was no other course than
to fully cooperate with the investigative efforts underway. In the
ensuing "chit chat" he said he had recently lunched with Egil Krogh,
who had indicated that he felt what he had done was proper as in the
best interests of the country. Mr. Mullen said he told Krogh that
perhaps Daniel Ellsberg felt the same way about what he did.
Mr. Mullen also mentioned that a Miami newspaperman by the name
of Plessner had spoken to him and knew of Agency
relationship. I told Mr. Mullen that we are aware of certain leakage
on the relationship but assured him that we were doing our best to
prevent it, although we were doubtful of our ability to control the
situation. (Arrangements were made with Security,
to take custody of the stenotype notes of the Mullen testimony.)
9. Plans for tomorrow:
a. I reviewed generally with Thompson the plans for
tomorrow's third day session, Esterline and the tapes
and transcripts. Thompson wants Mrs. Dunlevy to testify
and suggested Barbara Pindar as a witness. He had fixed
on Miss Pindar because of her action in connection with
Karl Wagner's discovery, but I said I didn't believe it was
her job to "shake the tree." I told him that we were aware
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
of their interests in a complete wrap up and that I am sure
that Mr. Colby will arrange for them to have it as soon as
all the facts are pulled together.
b. Mr. Colby called Mrs. Dunlevy concerning the
Committee's interest. Later I called Elizabeth and
reviewed the situation with her. About 10:45 p. m. I
succeeded in reaching Fred Thompson at home and he
suggested that his only interest is for her to recall what
she can about the January 1973 destruction of tapes.
so �ot a run down from what he and
ad learnec. in their review. Messrs.
os i a - - .pivchak who were involved in the tape
destruction in 1973 and as a back-up expert
witness if needed, will be avai a e for testimony
tomorrow morning.
c. Mr. Jake Esterline will also be available to
testify tomorrow.
10. Senator Baker:
a. Prior to the commencement of the afternoon session,
I met with Senator Baker and Fred Thompson in the Senator's
office and showed them the summary of the transcript of the
Cushman/Erlichman conversation attached to Karl Wagner's
5 February 1974 affidavit. Senator Baker was appreciative
of keeping him informed and immediately sent a letter to
Fred Buzhardt at the White House referencing the information
and requesting a copy of the transcript or tape of the conver-
sation. Baker noted several items in the affidavit of special
interest for our follow up. (Follow up: Senator Baker was
particularly interested in the Cambodia analysis and an item
involving Dr. Kissinger. I told him that I had not had a
chance to review the memoranda mentioned in the affidavit,
but I was sure we could work out an arrangement so that he
could be assured whether or not they relate to Watergate or
other matters which we are aware are of special interest
to him.) I called OLC to assure that we had already provided
the White House a copy of the same material so that there
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
wouldn't be any chance that the first notice would
Baker's letter and was so assured by
b. Senator Baker said Mr. Robert Mullen would
be testifying in executive session later in the day and
I assured him that we would release Mr. Mullen from
his secrecy oath for the purpose of this interview.
c. Finally, Senator Baker said that as soon as he
had clarified a few more matters, he intended to turn
over to the Senate Armed Services Committee the
matter of any further inquiries concerning the Agency.
(This may well have related to a conversation that I
had with Messrs. Thompson, Madigan and Liebengood
last night. See memorandum of 4 February 1974.)
d. After swearing in Robert Mullen, Senator Baker
told me that it was now current on the Sans Souci circuit
that there soon would be some big event involving the
Agency. He also said that Pat Buchanan is spreading
tales about the Agency and that he had never talked to
Pat Buchanan. In response to my query, Senator Baker
said these matters did not involve either the Mullen
Company or the transcript that Karl Wagner just found.
In response to his question, I told Senator Baker that ,
I was sure that the Agency is not leaking anything and he
agreed that this wouldn't be in keeping with his estimation
of Mr. Colby, but then pointed out that Mr. Colby, despite
this, was aware of something that if he didn't reveal would
be very damaging to him and the Agency. I asked Baker
if this happened to involve the same matter he had mentioned
to us earlier concerning Erlichman and he nodded.
Mr. Cary and I advised Mr. Colby of the above late on
5 February. Mr. Colby will call Senator Baker concerning
these matters.
Deputy Itjegislative Counsel
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422
7
I
Approved for Release: 2017/01/18 C01474422