(DELETED) INTERVIEW WITH.

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Keywords: MKULTRA
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00190593
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 2
• Document Creation Date: January 21, 2025
• Document Release Date: January 15, 1983
• Publication Date: March 11, 1952

Via "itiC 4/4, Er) �, r U. .larch 1952 Interview With. 4. 1. Reference 13 made to my memorandum dated 6 Fel,ruary 192 re- questing permission to interview In connection with the Artichoke problem. . . 2. On 7 March 192,41111111111ras interviewed from 10:00 AM to A 11:50 AM by and the writer in 3. Although 71s a fully cleared A ency employee and odi holds a responsible position inj and the writer dis- cussed random subjects with until it WOI estehlished that he was competent, had a general interest in Artichoke type work, and appreciated the necessary secrecy involved in thin type of discussion. .t established these remises, was interviewed along ,#4: Artichoke lines. -^7after having been given a brief resume ,of,the Artichoke work, stated that, whereas he was interested in the problem, he wanted it clearly understood that he felt morally opposed to the Applicatien of these techniques insofar as he personally is concerned. He stated however that he recognized the fact that we Ale are at war and theilli111111111111111111111111rre using Arttoko techniques and cych more brutal methods for obtaining their es. fle stated that while he could not carry out such techniques as injecting ,sdrugs into an.individual, he, nevertheless, felt that he could quite 'legitimately study the problem from a scientific point of view and from the point of vies of one who is attempting to understand how the LJ obtained the results they did in cases like the trial. � I. thereafter, discussed at considerable length cer- tain views that he holds on the o!3ychological conditioning of individu- alsand how individuals could be conditioned to achieve most Pny result provided time enough were taken and the individuals were studied in a clinical psychological mnnnor. He suggested that, .4berone psychologists and psychiatrists work townrd the restoring and building up of a per- sonnlity, it is obvious that the reverse of this would be true -- that a personality could be changed, intense mental confusion could be pro- duced by deliberately attacking an individual along psychological lines. stated that, whereas he had studied the � case, it had never occurred to him that he would ever consider using these techniques from an Agency point of view, but he felt that as far as ha*was concerned, he would gladly assist by attempting to figure out from a how,they conditioned men like before their trials. ' ��� A ,. � 'e � , 4;;�i;;�'�'�... � � si�4,,c't ; .4" . ;: ,4 3V3': A I A ) K 1.1110r" 111=1�000. NNW' 6. and the writer talked at c�msiderable length about possible uses of hypnotism in connection with the rtichoko work and, in general, it mey be said thatallill.1 felt that there 4A5 a posi- tive, use for hypnotism. He agreed that individuals under hypnotism will give information, but he pointed out that it could not always be regarded as accurate, since fantasy and even hallucinations are present in certain hypnotic stntee. 7. stated that he had observed scrie work done with drugs and he, himself, had participated in attempting to extract Infor- mation from individuals by drugs end hypnosis. In this connection and the writer did not attempt to immediately pumt, for technical information or studies, since it was felt that ad- .ditional.interviews with will be held in the' immediate future. 8.111111111111 throughout the Interview, was entirely co-operative, appears highly intelligent, and oledoesly was intensely interested el- though he insisted that morally he could not carry out any of the Flue- bird ideas although he recognized the necessity for such activity. . 9. The writer very carefully pointed out to that the reason for this interview was not to obtain information frof but rather to present a series of problems to him and iet him think of them and consider them in his mind. 1111r%ras also specifically asked to consider any projects that he.111111 thought might be valuable or in- dividuals who could be contacted and who would have information of inter- est to us. 10. 4111111111111 stated that the problem was of considerable interest .and that he regretted that he was unable to put full and immediate at-. tention to it, but promised that til_ma.j_LIL2.2410 matters discussed very serious thought and would ce111111111111117Or the writer when he - had culled the various matters discdssed over in his mind and applied what knowledge he had in those connections. 11. and the writer feel that be profitable end both are of the impression thati the need for secrecy in this type of work. efforts will understands 12. For matter of record, it should be noted that in order to ask clme over to this office, explained that the reason for the interview was in connectio9 with the fact thnti knew and his work at -2- ,