DISCUSSION AT (DELETED) 4 SEPTEMBER 1953

• Document Type: SPECIALCOLLECTION
• Collection: General CIA Records
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00145002
• Release Decision: RIPPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 3
• Document Creation Date: December 17, 2024
• Document Release Date: January 15, 1983
• Publication Date: November 6, 1953

Report byee,weeeze...e.Are
cis ,.:)-e/ 4.- A/c. ,,. �
0� Ts6 /ley,
w
fe-eteeocr lcee7
ri=1.eiippeeerny werc both in the Uni4e1
Stetes v.:an i wen:. eere. (I hae kno,:n this before goine there. Their ahsencee
an opportunity to obtein frenh points of view from their colleaTuen. Theec pro*.-cd
interestin)
,04 :19e21
...tradlite.r415Pilt.eMe�leen pharmacoloTicel associate, ated as ho:t. (I bed net him in
:ttVtlbareith end had entertsined him at dinner there.)
eeeree,*
td2g503P4a004-4421.04404404-
erom the very bceinning of ()Tr' dIscuseien it became at once epperent thet an
extraordinary ehenr.e had occurred rince my last year's visit. (Nothine could offer
a better exameIe of the imeortence of eontinuity in studies of this kind than the
Comparisnn of this.yeer'r discurcien yith last year's. I am certein that a visit
for the first time this year vould have led to w-one conclusicres.)
w4-2�.'-eeiemeeegereWAS �
Last year, were full of enthuziaen for their work on
the creot ecriettivce, seth the diethylemii of lyeereie acid ("L.S.D.-25") and the
new moneethyl cenid (uL.;..r..). They see:e with a heeey sigh of the "more than 200
letorateries" enenged in work on the L. S.D. en,, of the "burden" (ehich they obvioe:'7
enjoyed) that this threw on then. 1:ork vas proceeding b.iskly in their laborateries.
and they were delizhted with the situation at this tine.
This year an extrzoriinarily different atmoetphere prevai_led:"e" ere
they rpperently much in:erected. This was so obvicue, Isl:sdireeer- le teey 7ere
giving up their work in this field. His answrr as vegue. Apearent17 he sense itn
inedeeluecy, fcr he rather hectily cdeed, "we have no means here for tes'tine these
ergot deriveti'res". I adeed, milely, "But neither no vnu have fazilities testirg
your other products". I re=-ained 'rem -ointing out th&t the leek he ,:entione-'' wee
present last year tee. It as clear that he did not w-ish to pureue the subject en'
let it drop. The.sienifieant thine was the rather starting chenge in attitude f�eeem
last year to
A211'!r77,==-41gWW
I gave lt a brief report en our work with L. A.B. (sufficient only to
ensure his continued. cooneretion end a supply of the drug. This supoly he premised
to continue.) He spoke of their.necd to get "zeme agency" to undertake a systematic
study of these aeents. Perhaps he emphasi:e o little too much their willingness
(eagerness) to have scme officiol body in the United Steten take on study of these
drug:- I couldn't help lecneiering if he wente::� to get it eleinly on the reeord that
they had made these agents available to the West, lest traffic vith Russia (see my
previous report) look bad at some future date 2nd in sane future -world situation.
At this -point I was curious to understend what had produced the change.
Several poseibilitiee were to be considered: �
(a ) They had lost interest scientifinally. (Incredible)
able)
(b) They had beccme tier-tea et the ethical erd. norrl p roblem involved. Improh- '
�
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.(e) 111(.7 oruld po ade-unte finanntrl rcrn. (Ponrihle, but it rcemo
%.culd et this point thro-, t
w111::c17 th:q :n c:Trrienned du: hotuls
tonnnzt, especirlly in view of their alrz.ey considersble invetmcnt.).
T.-
(d) There hrd been serious acciOents, toxin re-set-Lon.. (Interentin7ly
denicA �n- nn'Arnt w:+h L.S.T1 n- r 0
r- to h-s-: n-n�1;-4n - ' �
M4;Wge4"Siqq-FF"47A"Mir192ijarjrM4.17-Zrr.V:445ra RC' S
tnd a lea:line: invectinctor of-L.S.D. It is im:ossitO'
bn:i!vn V1-%t he wouldn't hrve passed on his in'ormrtion to his collesguss,324%=fttg..
ataugageng=2:4 concerning the accident int:71'714 (mentioned in ny earlier rEport).
1.4,
(--''here has been unfavorable publicity of such in 'extent as to frighten th-
corpony into restricting their interest. (I hnve seen no such publicity in the
Unitcd St-;tes press or such Eurc2ean press as I have seen; however, there ha.7. been
tone. This was spoken of at a later discussion, as follows:
A luncheon was arranged for me Itf77,044-�,1 , ft,. � .-1;274%**.-:ere present.
Nring rn absence from the table I said tokiii"&focrently En
official of the company, "I hope you are not abandoninr: your interest in the ergot
derivrtivc-n." "No," he said, "bnt we nre burned nh41j.ren." Then he mentioned a
considernble ouantity or unfavornble publicity which he said had stemmed "from the
ress". He said he did not know who had been resporsible for it. He
remarked that this publicity had commented on possible politica/ mnd militar7 uses
of the agents. (If these press reports have been compiled, and certainly they should
be, I should like to see them.)
I can only guess, but it seems probable that thityun'avorable publinity is
responsible for the new attitude spoken of at the ginning of this recort. Other
factors Fre doubtless relate to this publicity such as fear of law suits by "victim:
or subjects of experinentat.
(f) There is of course the possibility, very improbable I think, that ;
hes, for economic, for trade reascns, or for other sontideratien, decided to ms%e
tts information and output available to the East end that talk about a "U.S. agency"
to work in the field is for the record only. ::.Epinst the occ�,-snce that T
can have a continuing supply or L.S.D. End L.A.E.
tia4.4-7=M1i=sikir
During the course of the above conversation I asked *D7AMh if they hr:' made .
any new derivatives of lysergic acid. He snid, uithcut interest, well, they had had
one, but it hndn't panned out. Whether this is true Or merely part of the new
minimizing policy would be interesting to know.
2=;2111,-4~,11
I should like, et some later, tine to follow up this aecueintenee with
He seamed =ore forthright, perhaps less discreet, than the others.
�
A follow-un should be made on the present illness of
I picked up.s hint that it is mental. I also picked
the suggestion that. it was related to his experimental work. This raises the question
of whether freeuent self-experimentation with the ergot derivatives could be-respon-
sible. This is of enough i=portance to justify investigation, I think.
Near,77:is
I have reason to believe that the Comprny has on hand about 21 pounds of
L.S.D. This is a fantastically large amount. This should be checked. If true, cne
ern make interesting speculation as to why they made so much so early in the trials
of this tgent.
'
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