THE UNITED STATES SENATE; REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS TESTIMONY OF; SIDNEY GOTTLIEB

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00095086
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 125
• Document Creation Date: July 13, 2023
• Document Release Date: March 8, 2022
• Case Number: F-2017-01793
• Publication Date: October 16, 1975

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Senate Select Commlttee to Study.Governpental
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Operations With Respect to. Intelligence Activities
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Thursday, October 16, 1-975
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(Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over
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WARD & PAUL
410 FIRST STREET. S. E.
WASHINGTON. D. C. 20003
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Gottlieb Exhibit No. 4
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S T AFF INTERVIEW
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Thursday, October 16, 1975
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United States Senate,
Select Committee to Study Governmental
Operations with Respect to
Intelligence Activities,
Washington,. D. C.
The Staff met, pursuant to .notice, at 12:45 p.m., in
Room S. 406, the Capitol.
Present. Elliot M.axwell, Ted Ralston, Frederick Baron,
and Joseph diGenova, Professional Staff Members.
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Mr. Maxwell. We will resume .:11'e testimony of Dr.
Gottlieb.
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB, (resumed)
ACCOMPANIED BY TERRY F. LENZNER, COUNSEL
Mr. Maxwell. Dr. Gottlieb, again for the record I
would like to remind you that you do retain your Constitutional'
rights and the right to remain silent. And I take it you
are being accompanied by counsel is an indication that you are
exercising your right to counsel.
And you have a right, as has been made clear before, to
have a Senator present during your testimony. And I take
it that until you so indicate otherwise that you agreeable to
13 testifying under oath without the presence of the Senator?
14 I Dr. Gottlieb. That is right.
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Mr. Lenzner. WE stipulate to the same advice of couns-:
that you gave us yesterday word for word, and we agree with
it, to save time.
Ur. Gottlieb. There is one thing I want to put on thc
record, as a result of the stuff you 're kind enough to give
me to read this monring. And that is that I feel, lookir.-:
over that material, as I told you infor:Ially before, therc: I
only a small fraction of it that I can yive you first-hand
information about. As to the rest, if I have an indepdr-
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recollection of a part fron reading the memos, it would-cn:-:.
be hearsay. But in fact it has been so long ago that i%:.
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1 telling you I feel I am in the role of a consultant rather
2 than an interrogee, or witness. And my response is, if
that is what you want, I will be glad to be useful that way.
Mr. Maxwell. I appreciate that. And I think the best ,
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5 : thing to do before we begin is to say that you are setting
out to the best of your recollection those events that you
are participating in aside from the question of the relation-
__ _8 ship with! h !nu f�Nalocti s, and ou are�testifying that:
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9 it was conducted by the Bureau of Narcotics.
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1] ;I series, and the remarks I made don't refer to that.
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Dr. Gottlieb. I haven't read anything on that in this ;
Mr. Maxwell. You have, though, reviewed the material
that you have available on the Bureau of Harcotics?
Dr. Gottlieb. I think Terry did that.
Mr. Maxwell. I think you did.
Mr. Lenzner. There were some memoranda on the meeting
he had. But may I suggest that we are taking more time
doing this than if we were questioning.
Why not go ahead with the questioning?
Mr. Maxwell. I want the record to show that the materia:
that we have available on the Bureau of Narcotics has been
seen by Dr. Gottlieb.
Dr. Gottlieb. Was that yesterday?
Mr. Lenzner. It was after the session last Thursday.
I think since we are going sica1ly into the me:nor.tn.:i:
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as I recall them that refer to meetingn that Dr. Gottlieb
had with other officials in the government, I think Mr.
Giordano and others --
Mr. Maxwell. The memorandum also included a
memorandum prepared at the time of Dr. Olsen's death in
regard to the availability of LSD to a Mr. George White.
Mr. Lenzner. In other parts of the world, or something.
Dr. Gottlieb. I remember that now.
Mr. Lenzner. There is no question but what we saw that.
Dr. Gottlieb. I had actually forgotten that, because I I
was tired.
Mr. Maxwell. I think it might be useful if you would
like to put on the record those incidents in which you were
involved, and we can later flush them out, and if there are
questions about other oprations in which you were not directly
involved, or about which you might have some information, we
will ask those questions later.
Dr. Gottlieb. I want to make it clear that I wasn't
19 objecting to this role that I labeled as a consultant, if
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that is useful to you, that is fine.
21 Mr. Macwell. It may be. That can be determined.
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And would you like to begin with those things that you recall:
Dr. Gottlieb. If we are talking about the material th_c:
I read this morning, the easiest way for me to do it, sincc
you have them neatly dovetailed in ilcs, is to say,
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personally involved in this file, and in this one I was not,
and so on.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Maxwell. Why don't you go ahead with these files?
Dr. Gottlieb. The first file is drug use policy.
And that seems to comprise several memoranda, mostly in the
fifties, about policy records.
Mr. Maxwell. Was it your desire to go through all of
those files chronologically? Because if that is what you
intend to do, then I would prefer. to put that off for a moment..
Dr. Gottlieb. I was only going to make a remark about
12 each in terms of my personal involvement with it.
Mr. Maxwell. I misundersr.00d what you would 1..Ike to
14 do. But could we put that off for a little while? It maybe
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useful for your counsel to review those while the other
part of the discussion is going on.
Dr. Gottlieb. Fine.
Mr. Lenzner. I will be glad to do it any way you want.
Mr. Maxwell. I would like to yo through some of the
remaining memoranda in the time period, particularly on
2: Artichoke, and then proceed into the operational use.
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There is a memorandum dated--
Dr. Gottlieb. Am I to understand that these are oper.1-
tional use so that I can put them aside?
Mr. Maxwell. That is correct.
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There is a memorandum dated 15 April 1953 to the Chief
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of the Security Research staff, the subject being the Artichoke
conference of 19 March 1953. On page 3, at paragraph 14, the
memorandum.indicates that:
"Dr. Gottlieb discussed the chemical scruinim, and gave
a detailed report of TSS efforts along these lines."
Apparently this chemical referred to was LSD.
Dr. Gottlieb. When I read that all I could say is that
I don't have the slightest recollection of it.
Mr. Maxwell. There is a memorandum -- I don't think
that you have it, but I will read it in substance -- dated
May 13, 1953, for the Director of Central Intelligence, from
on C-.c subject of the briefing for the
psychological straLegy board_ Paragraph 2 says:
"The'Ngency is performing research on a drug called
il
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0 Dr. .Gottlieb. I just didn't retain a memory of it,
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'serunim' (lysurgic acid dicthylamide, commonly called LSD)".
and I don't remember now that LSD was ever referred to in that
way.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall the meeting?
Dr. Gottlieb. I do not.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall in March of 1953 what
efforts were being made by TSS in regard to LSD?
Dr. Gottlieb. I think I wrote in that prepared state-
ment, or read into the record, the fact that we certainly
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some contracts let to try to uncover Some of the properties
of LSD. But what they were and who they were with I don't
remember.
Mr. Maxwell. That same meeting also mentions that you
discussed the material from Latin America obtained by OEM
1111111116 and stated it was now being tested and would be fully
exploited.
Do you recall whether in fact any of that material was
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� botanicals that were collected in an effort to just see whethe:-
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. 10 Dr. Gottlieb. I don't recall any of it being used
11 operationally. If what you arc referring to is these
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i there were other operationally uceful materihls, that was an
14 experimental effort, an3 we are screening miltr,..rials. BLit
15 I don't reMciaber anything that came out of that 1:hat w,ts
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1.; Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall what research was done
the screening? Was screening done on human volunteers in
3: regard to the !botanicals at the .1%go.ncy or by cuniracts
outside?
Dr. Gottlieb. I wouldn't Lhinl: so. t would t.hin thv
22 first effort would be to determine the physiological activily
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2! ; on animals. And I really don't remerther now how far they
But I would think -- well, is speculative, an.
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don't think it would be helpful to you.
Could you restate your question? I understood your
question to mean, this testing exploitation, I think the
4 word was. Did you mean were they tested on human subjects?
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Mr. Maxwell. Divided into two forms. The testing it-
6 self, which I took to mean -- and which I might not have made 1
7 clear -- in regard to research either with universities, has-
8 pitals, mental hospitals, prisons, jails, institutions for the
criminally insane, operational use, I took to mean an operation
10 for either special interrogation or to change the behavior of
1) an individual or groups of individuals who the Agency war.:0,:
to affect.
Dr. Gottlieb. The reason I an raising the question
14. is that although I don't have a specific recollection in the
research program of these botanicals, v.ho nsilocybins
and that sort of thing, they could well have been tested un
mans.
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And if you are talking about operational exploitatic:n.
I think this chap was the fellow that 1,rought us hack this
41111111othaL I wqs tellIng you andut, te41011011111111.
that certainly as used operationally But I don't reme7-
ber it ever being tested. I think we put some on ourselve
to see if it MUM and that was :he test.
::as that all.11.111. or 1111111.1.11111111.
Dr. Gottlieb.
simmIllgtgrew it for us later, but.
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it well could have been ellIMMIP who first came across it.
Mr. Maxwell. Would you define for the record how you
would interpret the term operational use in order that we
might have that made clear?
Dr. Gottlieb. My understanding of the term operational
use would be any use that would be made in conjunction with
supporting an approved operation of the Central Intelligence
Agency.
9 Mr; Maxwell. And how would you define testing?
10 Dr. GotIl_ieb. Testing would be a case where we were
13 trying to get information on the properties of a material by
using facilities that had nothing to do with it.
Now, there is such a thing as operationally testing.
that is where the two get combined.
Mr. Maxwell. Would you define that_ for the record?
Dr. Gottlieb. Well, I would define that as a case
where two things are happening. One is, it is being potentiai:1
useful to an approved operation of the Ayency, and the
other is, it is providing what I would call research informJ-
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tion in a testing sense.
Mr. Maxwell. There is a memoran,.1= that I would �
call your attention to dated 11 May 1953 for the Chief, !;cc..r-
ity Research Staff, rr. Morse Allen, the subject being the A:-
tichoke Conference of 16 April 1953.
Paraoraph one indicates that u were in attendance
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presenting TSS.
Paragraph 2 recalls a report by 114111111111111en the
subject of continued "Artichoke experimentation and research,
particularly on criminals passing through the cities psycho-
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Do you recall that report or re-
search done for Artichoke in such a setting?
Dr. Gottlieb. I can only say I don't remember it, and
I doubt�vc17�much it it had anything to do with the TSS.
This taleig.
never worked for me. And I would only assume
he was with one of the other units that coordinated in the
Artichoke program.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you remember receiving inforrztion from
other units in the Agency on experimentation performed at
mental hospitals, prisons, and penal institutions?
Dr. Gottlieb. I remember generally receiving such
information, but I don't remember where they were or
when the information was given to me, or who performed the
work, what unit performed it.- And I may right now be confuse:i
by what I am reading here. It is one of those situations'.
Nr. -",axwell. Do you have a general awareness of testin-i
that went on under TSS or TSD auspices at hospitals, mental
hospitals, prisons, jails, and institutions for the criminally
insane?
Dr. Gottlieb. I certainly wouldn't say yes if you
. mean all of those. If ycu mean any of those, the answer is
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Mr. Maxwell.
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Do you have a particular recollection of
experimentation that went on in one or more of those, and if
so, which ones, as categories rather than as particular in-
stitutions.
Dr. Gottlieb. Excuse me, I would like to consult
with my counsel.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
pArpntly misunderstood the question.
I understood your question to mean, could I name a specific
institution in which this kind of work was done, or institu-
tions.
Mr. Lenzner. I understood the question to mean, do you
know whether it was done in hospitals, institutions for the
criminally insane, or institutions for criminals, or any
.other institutionsl generally.
Mr. Maxwell. At this point it is a general question in
regard to categories rather than a particular institution.
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Dr. Gottlieb. I misunderstood it.
Could you restate it, and I will try to answer as accu-
rately as I can.
Mr. Maxwell. If it would be helpful we can do it in
Do you recall anygeneral research being done under TSS
auspices at hospitals?
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
Mr. Maxwell. With psychochcmicals?
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Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
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Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall experiments with ps:/::hoche7i-
cals on human subjects being done in prisons under TSS
auspices?
Dr. Gottlieb. Well, I am having trouble with the term
"prisons".
(Witness confers with counse.)
Dr. Gottlieb. The reason for the confusion here is
, that there were institutions or institutes that I have trouble
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defining. I wouldn't call it a prison. It had people
with criminal background in it, but they were not confined
as they would be in a prison. And I would call it more of .1
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treatment
facility.
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Mr.
Ralson.
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Dr.
Gottlieb.
hospital,
but it was
Would this be a halfway house?
Something like that, yes. It was a
not a hospital for the criminally insane.
It was just one of these definition problems.
Mr. Maxwell. Is it an institution run by the U.S.
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Public health Service?
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
Mr. :iaxwell. At this point I am not goin:j to pursuo
the specifics, but that may well be considered in the future.
Dr. cottlieb. I will cope with it when it comes.
Maxwell. The mono al:m indicates in paragra;.: .
Dr. Gottlieb. Excuse mo. I want to comment on somet.h:.. .
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I hope youLnderstand, I am not trying to be obstructive
here, I am just extremely sensitized to this leak business.
-) And I am extremely sensitized to words like criminals and
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criminally insane. And that is what is goinc through my
mind. I want to answer the questions very carefully for
that reason.
Mr. Maxwell. Fine. It is my understanding that your
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response was that in regard let me try to make clear what
I believe the response is.
There was some confusion on the part of Dr. Gottlieb
as to whether the institution that he had in nind where
osychochcmicals were tested on human tubjucts was accurately
described as either a prison or a hospital or An institution
for the criminally insane or any other institution, that it
might well have crossed lines in the definitions he would hay,.
set up for those, and that in fact-it was at, institution that.
he had in mind when he was responding that it might best be
called a treatment facility rather than either necessarily n
hospital or a prison, and that it may well he that the in-
dividuals utilizing that treatment fac I I had :nga�cd udrt.
of that time in criminal acts, or might have been convicted -
criminals, but it would not be accurately described as a
detention center.
Mr. Lenzner.I think that is a fair statement. In tht:
previous answer he did say that he recalled that hosoitals As
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institutions generally had also been--
He has not yet responded to the question as to whether
there were, to his recollection, under TSS auspices, experi-
ments on human subjects with psychochemicals in prisons.
Dr. Gottlieb. My answer to that is that to the best of
Mr. Maxwell. To the best of your recollection -- and
here I would call attention to a previous memo -- to the best
of your recollection, given the minutes of the Artichoke
conference of 19 February 1953, where they were testing under
TS S auspices psychochcmicals on human subjects at universitie:: -
Dr. Gottlieb. Could you point to the paragraph in
14 that that you are referring to?
Mr. Maxwell. Paragraph S.
1 f' Dr.. Gottlieb. Paragraph 8 only tells me that the
r: � category -- there would seen to be five, but there were
J.: various universities and hospitals. And mine doesn't have
3:1 . anything.
Mr. Maxwell. That is correct. I an just asking genet-t:1::
for the category.
Dr. Gottlieb. I don't think that would have been one.�
them, to the best of my recollection prisons would not hay"
been one of those categories.
Mr. Y.axwell. ::ow, I am referring to universities.
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Cr. Gottlieb. What was your que-Ition?
on human subjects involving psychochemicals under TSS auspices
4 i at universities.
Mr. Lenzner. Before you answer that, do you have an
6 unsanitized version that lists specific institutions?
Mr. Maxwell. I do not have that with me. I have access
a fair paraphrase of the specific material.
Dr. Gottlieb. I am having trouble with that one, be-
cause some of the individuals that we worked with surely had
university affiliations. But the work with human subjects
was done in hospitals.
So, when you say universities, it is again one of
these confusing terms that I would like to be accurate about.
Mr. Lenzner. This paragraph does not indicate, this
paragraph C, that tests were being conducted on humans.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Lenzner. Back on the record.
We arc now going to answer the ,luestion.
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We will break for lunch.
(Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., a recess was taken, the
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AFTERNOON SESSION
Mr. Maxwell. Back on the record.
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB (resumed)
Mr. Maxwell. I will frame the question, and you
may respond.
Do you have any recollection of testing on human subjects.
under TSS Auspices of psychochemicals at universities in
general?
Dr. Gottlieb. I think my response to that would be, not
to my recollection, with a comment that there was some of
the work involving such testing that went on at hospitals
that were affiliated with universities, and miyht have used
university students as a source of voluntrs.
Mr.-M�axwell. I would like to call your attention to
paragraph 3 of the same memo of 11 May 153, in which
it notes that:
"All hands agreed that a great deal of work was necessary-
--
-- and this was in reference to the Artichoke work -- "and
was essential to find an area where lar,I.e numbers of bodies
would be used', for research and exporimen:.al.ion".
Do you recall that discussion, or cl-) you recall other
discussions among either the Artichoke Conmittee or members .
of the TS staff on the need to have large numbers of bodies
available for research and experimentation in reyard t
psychochemicals?
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Mr. Maxwell. In paragraph 7 it indicates that there was
a general discussion concerning the problem of the returning
POW's from Korea.
6 Was any of the work done in TSS directed at research rela4-
ing to POW's returning, or directed at POW's returning from
Korea?
Dr. Gottlieb. Is the specific meaning of your question
using those people as subjects, or debriefing them?
Mr. Maxwell. First, debriefing them, and secondly,
using them as suhjects for other than psychochemicals.
And third, using them as subjects for testing by psycho-
chemicals?
Dr. Gottlieb. My answer would be that I have no
recollection of the latter two categories. And the former,
I have a faint remembrance that in someway either we got this
kind of information about their debriefing in a project we
had that was interested in fathering intelligence on
possible brainwashing.
And I do sort of remember that we had access to some of
Maxwell. '..;as one of the concerns of Artichoke, if
you can remember, independent of their material, the questIon
of brainwashing of POW's, or one of the concerns of the Agenc.
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this concern?
Dr. Gottlieb. Certainly it wai one of the concerns of thd
Agency. Whether it was a concern of Artichoke -- I would
have to say yes, in its general thrust, and again mostly
reminded by what I read here. I think that term came up in
the minutes a couple of times.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall at all my discussions involv-
8 ing particular POW's at Valley Forge and proposals to interro-
1
9 '; gate them?
10
11
1
Dr. Gottlieb. Is this a TSS effort?
Mr. Maxwell. This was an ArtichoY:e Committeee effort.
And it is detailed in a memo dated 8 June 1953 to
the Chief, Security Pesearch Staff on the subject of the
. 14 Artichoke Conference of 21 May 1953.
1!) If you don't have it I will hand it to you.
16 Dr. Gottlieb. I don't remember readino about that.
17 Mr. Maxwell. Here it is. ,
(Handing document to [Jr. Gottlieb.)
:�.:
And I call your attention to paragraph 2.
Dr. Gottlieb. Are you askin5 me whether I have an
independent recollection of that?
Mr. maxwell. Well, the memorandum does not show you as
in attfmdance at that meeting. The question comes to mind,
1,ecause of the reference in the parayraph that sodiun amytal
and sodidm pentathol WAS rcled out f use with the return in
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To the best of my.recollectionI was approachec
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the..headquarters.desk. involved that
such a-trip and such a series of technically
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assisted interrogations -7 and by,.technically,assisted I mean
LSD -- consisted of approval by:thE'Bra'nch Chief,
'
an individual from
the approval of
using
the Division Chief, and the DDP:
the nature of the assistance
discussed with
that LSD could provide
in this
interrogation. And there was some cables exchanged, I
believe, although I can't remember that in detail now, again
getting approval from headquarters to do it. And I was put
in touch
And I can't remember the specific
arrangement, whether I -ias looking through it through a mirror
or anything lie that, I ',..now that I saw the interrogations.
The nt.uaber of individuals that were in I
' don't remember, but I would guess -- and this is a wild guess--
between si:; and 12. I junt don't remember.
And there were no untoward side
injuries. And I came home and reported to the desk involv.
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Mr. Maxwell.
of thc Agency?
your recollection that
interrogation was
that they. had any wonder drugs I don't know.
Do you have any recollection of how the
dtOk0ib0ut thi.5--r�apzbLli_ty_r)n_t_hP_D4rt
Dr. Gottlieb. I really have no specific recollection.
I would just guess that it probably happened that either
about
it-
72.2 6L
was bac'f: at headquarters and found out
(_):t:ciJocy else, or some operations
officer (Joing out there carried it out.
:laxwell. Can you place it in 1953 at all in a
more specific way?
Dr. Gottlieb. ho, I really can't.
t.Yr. t!aNwell. \rlci do you recall the dosage that was
involved?
Dr. Gottlieb. 'es, I do recall that, because I know
Lye thouciht W3S the right dosage.
And it was in this
range of GO to 100 micrograms per individual.
%.1cre the individuals under interrogation
un:lor 24hour observation, do you recall?
Dr. Gottlieb. I really don't remember that. I remembc
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with the drug.,
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Mr. Maxwell. Do you recal1,whether there were
-me,dieal:Tersonnel-i-fivciivedjn-thinterrogation?
. .
- � ..",",.:,�::..7,;_i.�::::,-.Zni4-:.�:': �� �
Dr. Gottlieb.'TheT;certainly.yeren't involved in the-.
. _
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interrctemti-on, as I-rememberThere'Were medical facilities
;'--.�-�:__-�----,..-:,�,.:-..-:.'��� �:'�:'.,:'�.i...-..
involved 10 case anybody needecithat,kind of help .
-�
20
21
22
23
24
. Ma Xwell _Off .the record.
(Discussion'off the:record.)
Mr. Maxwell.� On the record.'
will break until 10:30 tomorrow.
the Interview was adjourned,
(04hereu0on1
to reconvene at 1030 a.m.,
at 5:10 p.m.,
Friday, October 17, 1975.)
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