THE UNITED STATES SENATE; REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS TESTIMONY OF; SIDNEY GOTTLIEB

• Document Type: FOIA
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 00095085
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 98
• Document Creation Date: July 13, 2023
• Document Release Date: March 8, 2022
• Case Number: F-2017-01793
• Publication Date: October 15, 1975

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[ NATIONAL SECL.R ITV INFOR\ T
ORIGINAL 1
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Report of Proceedings
Hearing held before
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purpose other than the-establishment of a false identity,,,_.a.nd_
specifically that it should not be used to cast aspersions or
in any aggressive way against the alleged -- the person whose:
identity was invoked. My question is whether you know of any
use by CIA or by any other Agency of materials furnished by
CIA in the way of false identitification or alias identificati
to discredit the person who was the subject of the documentati
as distinct from simply to have a false identity. Is the
questIon-cea
-
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes, the question is vi,ry clear. And my
answer is no.
Wides. And that would include not simoly identifica-
tion cards in the narrow sense but false documentation -- and
let me add an important qualification on that, I am not
about overseas operations with regard to foreigners as part n
a covert actfpropaganda campaign, but I am talking about
sPecifically American citizens?
Mr. Lenzner. Are you includinc2 thc.provision of alias
documentation to Howard Hunt and Cordon Liddy?
20 i Mr. Wides. No. And that �./as ultimately in connectinr,
23 perhaps, with t.;-.(2 discrediting operation. hut I am talin.!
22 I about a situation where the use of the documentation itself
tqas to discredit the person ,:;ho was the subject of the
o 24 1 documentation.
25 Mr. Lenzner. And you are askinei specifically about
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American citizens in !th's
Mr. Wides. Yes.--
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Dr. Gottlieb: e'nswer:would be no.
Mr. Wides. Returning to the question of training, are you !
aware generally, or do you recall generally activity by TSD
in training police and other law enforcement bodies, State and
_local law enforcement bodies, in a variety of technical
activities?
Dr. Gottlieb. Jus m nu.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Dr. G,ottleih. I was aware of this activity that you
tal!:ing about.
Mr. Wides. What kind of programs did this involve?
Specifically, did this involve persons from TSD to your know-
ledge going to a local area and giving instructions, demonstra-
tions or advice, or did this only involve law enforcement
personnel coming to Washington to a regional TSD office for
some sort of -- as Part of -a seminar-or class -- or what kin:!
of arrangements
were
used?
arc
Dr. Gottlieb. That is a complex question for me to answer.
My general answer to it would be that it was to my remembrance
almost entirely the latter. But I want to make the exception.
I can remember at least one incident that had to do with thesc
letter bombs where, because of the urgency, an because of
whole lot of other things, technicians in TSD ';ho were
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they did go
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-2-I.-:guessyoujiouldn't?"call Canada domestic, but
up to Montrealtohelp the local police body
problem and.defuse'the bomb. That
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training,
I guess you would call. it.4p:But!:they did go. That was out of
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the pattern. ��,� �
Mr. Lenzner. To make sure the record is accurate, I think
you asked whether the police would come to Washington,or the
CIA, or would the TSD go to the police. And I think you said !
it was usually the latter. And I think you meant the former.
Dr. Gottlieb. I an sorry, I meant the police would comn
to us.
Mr. Uides. :shat was the normal pattern. And I didn't
mean initiated by TSD as a component,
Dr. Gottlieb. He was talking about later and former, ahz!
I misunderstood the order in the sentence.
Mr. hides. Who were the heads of the traininy. branch duri.ilt:
the period that you were Chief of T.:;6?
19 Dr. Gottlieb. I am trying to remember.
I an just hitting a blank on names here. Could you
21 stimulate my memory?
22 if you mention
24 (Dff the record discussion.)
I am not trying to withhold this, but
a few names I recall them,
Wides. Off .the
2.F.� Mr. Wides.
i.;ack on t'ic record.
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Dr. Gottlieb.I.am�no-awnre(bnY such. Number one, I
wouldn't be. But
'..n'cidents-where some officers trained
Mr. Wides. Are you aware --
Dr. GottliebIC-17understrid'your'question, are you asking
me whether I know of any.i
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in some technology by TSD were later contacted and asked to do
in?
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some technical operat dhS�dbMeStically for CIA:
Mr. Wides. For second hand CIA operations?
Dr. Gottlieb. My answer is, f have no surch knowledge.
I Was not aware that the procedure was followed, nor do I have
any specific knowledge that any such happened.
Mr. ;4ides. Off the record.
(Off-the record discussion.)
Mr. Wides. Back on the record.
What about any recollections you might have of operations
in the US jointly participated in ZIA aid local police in
the areas of audo-operations or technical surveillance? Just
without being specific first, do you recall having any awarenc.s-
of that as distinct from operations, for example, involvinq
embassies where there might have been cooperation with the Ft::
or other Federal acencies?
(Witness confers with counsel)
Dr. Gottlieb. My recollection there that is relevant to
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your question is that I have a:remembrance of equipment being
coming up once:or,i6irce'
where personnel:wasfused
Mr.�WidesDolyou_recallwhetherLthose were instances
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involving the WashingEon-Metropolitan Police Department?
asked for, the loanfzIps;7t I don't remember -- and
I don't know the specific'sofitzjust remember that request
.1311-Er:dscremember any situations-
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Dr. Gottlieb. :,Myrecollection is of a local police
department, Washington:or;Fairfax.
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Mr. Wides. Metropolitan area?
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
Mr. hides. You don't recall any from other locations?
Dr. Gottlieb. No, I do not.
Mr. Vides. Off the record.
(Off �record discussion.)
Mr. ;:ides. We were speaking about the TSD responsibilit-
17 overseas regarding audio-operations. First, by audio, was tha:-.
18 ' used as a term of art to include both terti?hone taoping and
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19 electronic surveillance in the layman's understanding of
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20 both?
21 Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
22 Hr. wiJ1es. Is it correct that at least from the earl"
2Z sixties on there was a general jurisdictional agreemr'nt in a
24 rough sense that overseas audio-operations would be conducted
25
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by TSD, and that the primary respo sibility domestically would
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in the Office of Security?
Dr. Gottlieb. That is my remembrance.
Mr. Wides. In regard to foreign audio-operations.
Mr. Lenzner. When you asked that question, when you say
domestically, do you mean who would control it in terms of the
Agency in the US, not who controlled domestic audio surveillancl-!?
Mr. Wides. I meant which component would have the primary
responsibility for the technical aspects of it, not any policy
decisions. Is that responsive?
Mr. Lenzner.. Or audio surveillance overseas?
Mr. Wides. It would be the Technical Services Division.
And in the US that responsibility woulr: 1-,c in the Office of
Security.
regard Co overseas operations, did you over have
occasion to know whether American was eithor a target or w�-:
overheard in an audio operation?
Dr. Gottlieb. I an hesitatim: because it is a very genoral
u.uestion.
Mr. Wides. Let mc go back. Gencrall.y what kind of
information would you have as 1!caci of the Teebni.;:al :ervis2e4
Division as to the target, by which I mean not simbly the
nature of a building or the facility, but the category of
persons wished to be overheard?
Dr. Gottlieb. I wonld h,-,ve to bu'. it this that
atter:Int WA7, made to keep out of ':SD as much specifics in th.,:
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area as they could. Now, 'in apy practical setup that is never
possible. I an sure the Audio Operations Branch was aware of
the nature of some of the targets. Being about three steps
beyond that, I was to that extent less aware.
So he_might have occasionally been aware of the category
if not the identity of the invidividuals who have been over-
heard, but less frequently than the Branch Chief?
Dr. Gottlieb. I think so.
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operational --
Dr. Gottlieb. Restricted to the operational group that
did it.
Uides. �/ould there be any records, to your knowledg-..
or would you think there would be any records based on your
experience in the Audio Branch regarding tie nature of the
target?
Dr. Gottlieb. Every effort would have been made to
minimi7e that, is the best way I coutd answer that.
Widen. The next question, !lased on what we just
covered, in wIwther vou can recall ovor hni n aware :,erson,)1.,
either that an American was the target of an overseas audio
operation, or learning, without seein(.1 the actual taoes, than
an All,7!rican or Americans can be overheard in th course of a::
audio ePeration?
(%:itness conforn with cminnol)
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Dr. Gottlieb. I think my bese answer to that question
Mr. Wides. Excuse me. If you want to have any off the
record colloquy with me on that, you may do so.
Dr. Gottlieb. I will do it off the record if it is
helpful.
Mr. Wides. No.
Dr. Gottlieb. I think my best answer to that would be that
I had an awareness generically that in connection with the
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MRCHAOS program there were audio operations that were probab v
targeted against Americans abroad, si.nce I had a general
awareness of what their mission was. But I was never aware
specifically that on this day in that country this American.
Mr. Wides. Was there ever any discussion that either you
participated in, or that you were aware of, regarding any
constraints as a policy matter on conducting audio operations
abroad against Americans?
Dr. Gottlieb. Can we go off the record for a minute?
(Off the record discussion.-)
Mr. Wider,. Back on the record.
Dr. fott.Lic11,. INs 'Thief of th.- TF.D T nrlly not. '
involved in discussions of tilat kin:: at all, in that context.
Mr. Wides. But I take it you were aware of the cilAns
program generally?
Lr. Gottlieb.
Wir":es.
nid that come up in Part in rogrd to /our
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list of
Mr. Lenzner. Are youasking how did he become aware of it?
Mr. ides. Yes sir. �
Dr. Gottlieb I.don't-remember how I became aware of it.
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It started out as a very sensitiVe. project. There were very
few written thing3 I remember seeing about it. I think I
heczwAreit_when_they asked for our cooperation in the
audio area. And I must have gotten an Oral briefing, but I
really don't remember the context of it.
Mr. Wides. I believe we asked you on the record with
regard to TSD participation in domestic audio onerations. :
14 let me just go back -- I am trying to refresh your recollection'
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-- and ask you whether you recall, to complete the record,
furnishing any assistance in the area either of audio coverage
or surrepticious entry to the CRAOS programs?
Dr. Gottlieb. .In the US?
Mr. Wide3. For an operation in the US?
Dr. Gottlieb. 7 :Ion't have any personal remembrance of
either of thor.e.
Mr. Wides. 'Do you recall whether you happened to learn of
any operations abron.1, au:'.io or surrenticious ent_ry, in which
TD pa::ticipated, or any consideration of operations al,road
that y�au learned of ugainst
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either Ramsey Clar -- let's tal:o
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Mr
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Dr. Got tlieb My :answeris
Mr. Lenzner.- May I ask,'-does the Committee have any
evidence of that?
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made abroad, in an effort to pin down witnesses for prosecutio:::
purposes, and not in regard to other people, but that has
hraodcasts were monitored.
Mr. Lenzner. Pin down witnesses?
Mr. Wides. Off the record.
,
(Off the record discussion.)
,
Mr. Wides. Back on the record.
What about either Janes Fonda?
Dr. Gottlieb. no.
Mr. Wides. George McGovern?
Dr. Gottlieb. No.
Mr. Widcs. Let mc come hack to activities in America.
Off the record:.
(Off the record discussion.)
Mr. Wicks. Back on the record.
Dr. Gottlieb, there were allegatio made hy representat
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a forced.physicalbreakinat-..theZg;7....7bassy here in
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spring of 1972. ire you aware�pf.any
eneral assistance by the TSD in I
particular, or the CIA7i t.nfgor any other connection with
Washingtonatthat there,was-aTho:a--physidal breakin,
forcible':entrr:at-.severa �sapartments of representa-
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tives of the ChileairGovernment,anNew-.York in connection with
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their United Nationsmissiorithere;This was in the late
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those breakins.
Dr. Gottlieb. I am not aware of any.
Mr. Lenzner. Burt, let me ak you this. A couple of
questions ago you asked -- I want to be sure I got the r.uost-jo,'
right-- whether TSD had furnished any assistance in, I thin,
surveillance or surrepticious entry in the US as a oart of tho
operation CHAOS. Was that the question?
Mr. Wides. Yes.
Mr. Lenzner. That is not directly related to the question
of the breaking in in the Chilean Fmhassy,- Do you have
evidence that CIA assisted in any way in domestic operations
regarding operation CHAOS?
Mr. Wides. Not in regard to audio or surrepticious ert.ry.
And I just have to go back and check through my files a little'
more completely before giveino you a quick answer as to anv
other kind of technical assistance. For example, TSD was
involved in the mail program, and CHAO was oetting some of :Ay!
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I would �say..:,thhtLSD'had�by and large an effect that I woli
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call disorienting, Otherworldlygave you proprioceptions,
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which means perceivingfeelingin your self as opposed to
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feelings of things-out.sideyourself;ylike seeing a door as i
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making the point-- actions of LSD have to do with
this disorientation eyproduCtionof.bazaar feelings in the 1
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fields of colorperception n.;thefiels of how you perceive
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your own body. And:it:hai an effect, as I remember it, -- I a:71
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trying to think of the term for the opposite of dilating the
pupils of your eyes.
Mr. Ralston. Contracting pupils?
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes, contracting the pupils of the eyes.
The last time I took it was a long time ago. So I an
having trouble. I really am trying to recollect that.
Mr. Maxwell. You referred to it in your opening statement.
but it might bc appropriate to have it on the record here.
Do you recall approximately how many times you administere.4.
LSD yourself?
Dr. Gottlieb. I would guess, if you con'nine the times :
22
I administered it myself and the times it vies administered to
23 !,
in an attempt to get some neaninc on the unittinc
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tion, I would say from six to 12 times, I tzirJ: that is 4-ho
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used:But'Ionly:Y'rem6mber-.=sthat
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Mr. MaxwellCiriTS;OU'aiffeentiate at all the experience:
that you hwaedwhen....7
re Aeing of its administration and
when you not, time?
Dr. Gottlieb. I:wasthinking about that just before you
asked that: I don't thin) so:: it was administered to mc
unwittingly I was quite familiar with the feelings and I
identified it, now I have LSD.
Mr. Maxwell. So if I am correct, you are saying that you
were not administered the'drug unwittingly prior to your havir
taken it and known that you were taking LSD?
Dr. Gottlieb. That is correct.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you have any notion of how many times ye'
took it wittingly before it was ac:ministered unwittingly?
Dr. Gottlieb. Three or four times.
I was going to get to the Neretran next. Merctran was a
drug that had very little overtly perceivable effects, as I
remember it. It was mostly what they call nalcptic, somet:Iin
which keeps you awake, something which is -- again I will usc
the term "a psychic energizer," which make you feel energetic
and sort of with it. It was kind of an up drug. And I don't
know that I can really say anymore. I am not giving a medi.:;
lecture on those drugs. I an not qualified to do it.
knowledge of them is outdated, I an sure.
I I y
Mr. Maxwell. That was the purpose for using :Ieretran
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. -74._ +A � .40444441. 4Vati.74441, x �,-, ... ..;,.,:-
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. , ..,,, . T.,>, ,--.-crrix.7- , � � dd. A V.' � . 7'
''',.� .e... .1 '.-^r-VY.
Dr. GottliebIt-WOuld-.bebasically to get the interro-
..-41,-.4;,� .- . ,.. ..
-
gatee to be charged:bp:and with you and sort of eager to work,
. � � %,,-!-:-..;27.,.-,,,,�;.f.,,,,..tr,-,-,...;:�Y.-:' ' .:.. ' ..
and maybe have him lose%allittlelsleep, to get a certain, what
.40.4*7.1.70.1g67�:::, �
I would call, psyChiC.:advantage:
..--i.'-.7::..S14?&Ni0-01ZOPrOk --
Mr. 14axwelligoulo(2,the!:theory be that if the individual
was induced.chemicallyto:g6.beyond those point of fatigue
�which he or sh-e----l4.a-1--11y.---not-go�b-ehond, that the
resistance to questioning or to suggestion would he less?
Dr. Gottlieb. As I remember the work on ;Ieretran itself,
it turned out to be not a very attractive drug for interrooa
tion by itself, except in cases where you only wanted a small
effect, you were almost there. But I can't say yes to your
question. I don't remember following that particular line
of analysis of how it worked in interrogation.
Mr. Maxwell. I am not understanding, then, why you would
use it.
Dr. Gottlieb. Well, you could keep a.prisoner awake, say,
by just talking to him. You could also keep him awake in a
manner that might make him worry about wh7 hc couldn't slce!)
21 by giving him a Mcretran. It might be termed, I guess, a
22
23
24 ;
25
manner of stress that could be applied covertly. Does that
make it clear?
Mr. ;laxwell'. Yes.
,Mr. Ralston. Dr. Gottlieb, may I ask a question about
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en"?youTwere witting and when
� -4V-14 � .4......A244,V,7 rl �
you were unwitting?
ko..14-tt".2-.t1,01vTs.r.
.6.1ft
- Witt
Dr. Gottlieb.-',I'don't'remember�..aignificant difference
there.
Mr. Maxwell. - Would youfeelUncomfortable about attempting!
�
to describe your .1e;'Oe'it.7...,!::::reactions of individuals
- �
tc., whom ye-u---a-d-mi-ni-at retx-an�or�LSD2
Dr. Gottlieb. � I don't think I would feel uncomfortable
in doing that. I think I would feel a little inadequate. I
thini: one of the things we concluded at some point, after a
lot of wor}: in this field,was that they wrre a little unpre-
dictable, and that there was no standard sequence of events,
at least in a behavioral sense. And that is why I sort of
�
hesitate without somehow having my memory jogged by somethinq
we wrote or by an incident where there is such a description,
I would hesitate now to give you som-thing which I consider
a- standing observed reaction-.
Mr. Maxwell. Perhaps later on as we go through the reports
of the interrogation that involve those chemicals you may he
able to help.
Dr. Gottlieb. Sure.
�
�
�
Mr. Maxwell. There is a memorandum that is dated 2n March'
1952 for the Deputy Director for Central Intelligence on the
subject of project.,
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Dr:Gottlieyes
�
Mr
wasta;.cryptonym I didn't remember
vely�'.crytonymAnd I was wondering
�
if you recall that-PrOjecas.!/you-are listed as a possible
� - �
� . .
member of the projectadvisory,groupw en you were RDD?
"
Dr
5->r,can,g ..7piecise reaction I had
,
-
�
�
-
when I read this.*Thisrwis).oneofthe many ideas that never
- 7 � � ��
went through. I never-reMember'an�active, on going-project
of-
. � � . �
-
this name. I think it was a proposal that was made and nothing
ever happened.
Mr. Maxwell. My understanding was that there was a
proposal to be a testing facility within the CIA for Use in
connection with ARTICHC=.
Br. Gottlieb. I don't remember that ever happening.
You were asking me about their capability. I don't
remember any facility within CIA for experimenting in the
manner that this memo implies, because it doesn't really
describe it being carried out, I think-you will remember that
in my prepared statement I did mention a period of time at whil
we did administer the drug to CIA employees for what we calla:-
defensive pharmacology purposes so that they would be famili.lr
with it if they ever got it again. And that was done in a
facility, as I remember it, one of the traininrr facilities.
24 '1 But it certainly wasn't a special facility, it WAS nothing
25 special, it
was just using the room with certain people in i.
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,41,'.(4e41:".4'44.1.rdinf= tig110"ItiVV4Vk;:074 ,t-4,11W7,24.
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�fr '4 lritev, 111' *it Mt.
�-�
of TSS?,
DrCott eb.
Oc--
. � - .
conducted,a1ememb
43
conducted only on members
-44.41%,41-1;41,:k44L. � 4--42*...ne....
ffr\X717:::77:1-14--:� they were
vftszr
on.peoplef..in the operational side,
"
�
4-;4171AAMW*AVAM.
and some"?-iri he TDDP who.either felt.;themselves, or someone
else-..ke1t,oughtl4to ave that .tra
,
Mr: MaxwellAlow.werethose:people made known of the
���
� ��-��`.7-.:
possibility -c-f- ha:vingsuoh:training?-:
Dr. Gottlieb'.. They.were.completely witting of what was
going to happen and why;-and all" that.
Mr. Maxwell. Throughout the Agency, or throughout the
011P, how were people told that they could participate?
Dr. Gottlieb. It wasn't that kind of a program. They w-e:
�
approached -- and I forget how -- it wasn't a paper that said, �
,
anybody that wants LSD show up or present your case. It was
much more a program of somehow -- I don't remember the
mechanism -- of people who were going to serve in the Soviet
Union or in placed that would be exposed, they were approachc:'.,
and told, we have this capability of exposing you to this dru,
and the reason we thin; you might be interested in it is
because you might someday be covertly attacked by it.
Mr. Lenzner. You used the word tests. Those weren't
actually tests. They were actually considered a part of
training. Maybe they were evaluating reactions, but it was
mainly training.
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Dr.-GottlleCertainly:
, �
..-/:.::.Mr.-.Maxwell-Cou?_d:)you'zhavel:any recollection of roughl
-rstz-
� ." . � .
, .
something'between,six:and 1,1, something like that.
Mr ; ,In'regard,to,theadministration to_people
� �
within the DDP?..;:'--
how'many:people-were.% nvolvea?1
�
Dr :-::Gottlieb. henticined -in;.rty-prepared statement, I
Dr. Gottlieb:. Yes a as small number like that
And the program.waSdiscOntinued,'and I don't remember why.
� .7
I think maybe --I just don't want to speculate on this.
..c
Just as a .little more background to this point we were c
There was some evidence in reports from Eastern Europe and
Soviet Union that made several people in the Agency believe
that this might well be a technique or an instrument that w
being used by the Soviets and satellites.
Mr. Maxwell. Can you expand on that at all?
Dr. Gottlieb. I don't know that I can expand on spcci.
reports, but I remember particularly during that period th
a very prominent American diplomat came out of that area a
made some very inappropriate remarks, and there .,:as a lot
speculation that he was under this kind of attack. And t!
were several cases where we read reports of Soviets -- I
there was something here that Terrl/ was just pointing out
where some Scvict either defectors or Soviet arlents that
intercepted having hypodermic needles -- I guess maybe t
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was --
mAtzt.4,4
-���
Mr: Maxwel1 f.IZthinKtheememoindiCates that the claim
Dr. Gottlieb.That�they-yould be amenable to the will of
the captor.Apz*iA;
.:...The'Toint,we!were a ng,i's that
about'LSD:a17the
wedian't know anything
time, maybe that(was:6rie' of its possible
� .
- -g�,-
:"),Vri)4w4wavo.*:,?; Irgri) �/4,.
I:.thave,Iseen,other;memorandums in your files
that indicate 7.1.7,1=:777v.iet- Union and other countri
� ��
were administering:themothere was some indication that an
assumption could be mde-that'LSD was being administered
covertly by the Soviet Union.- .
� ,
Mr.':.Lenzner.
�
�
Mr. Maxwell. For the record, I ould like to read this
parag.raPh'of a memorandum from the Chief of the Medical Staf,
dated Janury 25, 1952. It is paragraph 9 of that memorandum
entitled "Summary and Opinion."
"There is ample evidence in the rports of inumerable
interrogations that the Communists are utilizing drugs, physif:a
duress, electric shock, and possibly hypnosis against their
enemies. With such evidence it is difficult not to zec!!)
becoming rabid about our apparent laxity. We are forced
this mountina evience to assume a more agressive role int.
development oC these techniquPs, but must he cautious to
maintain strict inviolable control because of the havoc
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Mr. Maxwell.
L u ,
Dr. Gott1iebAndZ1t.4was:dated January 1952?
� �
Mr. Maxwel1YestIt?,was,:b.ased on a commentary that the
�
individual was makinVaboutithe-evaluation of the role of the
� �
Office of Security In the ARTICHOE project.
46
There is a memorandum dated 22 March 1952 for the
�
Assistant Deputy, the Inspection and Security Staff, and the
Chief of the Medical Staff.
Dr. Gottlieb. We have it.
Mr. Maxwell. The first paragraph indicates the Chief of
Plans had discussed with Mr. Dulles,- the Deputy Director --
and at that time I guess he was still Head of OPC.
Dr. Gottlieb. Mr. Dulles? Mo, 110 was never Mead of OPC
-- I an sorry, my memory of that history is mixed up.
Mr. Maxwell. He would be DDP at that time?
Dr. Gottlieb. I would say so, ycs. This is Assistant,
is Chief of Plans, talking about him, as I read it.
Mr. Max'ilell. The proposed experiments were to be conduct.c
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TO P-
f�-�
withinthAgencyon-yarious:interiogation�techniques under
. � � . -
the overall:direction',ofOSIDO::you recall proposals for
series of experimentslwithinthe Agency on interrogation
� �' �-�''1���?4,�'!t_i0.4%,\--c-:;,*!-',�� �
techniques that-might'ODrefered to by this memorandum?
� ,; �
Dr. Gottlieb.can�only�tie it into this4IIIIIP thing
� �-�-�,��:,-.���-, � .
� 471-e.c4,
we were reading beforesI,T4i-emember it, while it is actuall
the memo before it In my�book;:that they were apparently
:�� .
improved provisionally or absolutely and really never went th
47
way.
a
Mr. Maxwell. I don't think -- I have difficulty in linki
this to a proposal, because we don't hav(2 any paper that
shows what you might be referring to.
Dr. Gottlieb. And there is no reference here. Ilut just
the time chronologically.
,
Mr. Maxwell. There is one difference, though, in that
TSS would actually run the experiments under the proposal.
It is not worth pursuing. But I just hoped that that might
trigger some recollection of what your ideas.
Dr. Gottlieb. I am sorry, I cant' help you there. You
want to know what the experiments were that he is approving.
I can't help you on that. I don't recall. It is really
confusing when you read paragraph 3. I don't know what the-
mean that TSS will actually run the experiment with OSI
providing supervision, advice an,1 qualified oersonnel. Th-
1 a very confusing way to organize somcthinc! to inc.
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;r17.4,r7"few..14c.tt:-
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Mr:Max-wel1::.n111FWA!!!!!!!: 1952, conducting
experimentstor:bthel'Agencylln'Flnterrogation:techniques?
k
Dr.'Gottlie ,,c,11qotto:my:'remembrancehat we were doing
g;7441-r
as.I'AriedZtiketch at least in the prepared
statement, is that"wewerebginnIng to contact some outside
contractors andtryingtOtlsome:.IISD. The thurst of
our interest atthe-tim.was7:nOt.s6 much on interrogation as a
thesis, as a themea focusjlOaut.'what does LSD do, and some
other drugs, I don't remeer-allftthem. Certainly we had
interrogation in the back of our minds but I am assuming when
you say interrogation you mean experiments that are testing a
drug under some --
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall the durgs aside from LSD that
arc the subject of interest on the part of TSS?
Dr. Gottlieb. My problem there is that I can give you a
list of some drugs that come to mind. But I can't say for
at that time is,
sure at what period they came in. There was LSD, Mere tran,
1
t
,
and something called psillocybin. There was mescaline, and ,
,
. . _
there was something called tetrachydro-cannabilnol, the activc.
constituent of marijuana. I can't name any others right now,
but that was a representative group.
Mr. Maxwell. as TSS involved in experiments with Sodium :
pcntathol amvtal?
Dr. Gottlieb. Mo. What Tsn was interestes! in, ton
what was we referred to -- and you may have read this
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nomenclaLure
y:.:�
. , �, , , , .
X tablet:_iihatfwerre
�-_,.:;.
would'do-whae-7-those-things'iyou-mcntione-d-would do, but could be
-
relatively Covertly,adMinisEerekand. render somebody in
� -,-.---- �-� ���--�;.---b--zfl.TinPew--7.---_ ���� � rol--7s�-�
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safe 'aspossibresenseless that,:they.could be removed from
�, �-�,...,,,F,A4,1. - - :1-.g.--k-'i�'� �
-
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somewhere;f-orsoithat,aguar .couldbe4overpowered. That was
- W..__,�:.J.gtAt.W;C.P:
a relatively fruitless.search;.nd to my knowledge still is.
Mr. RalstonWas'there'something like chloralhydrate?
. . ..
��49
r"
omething_we call it -- a
was something which
as
Dr. Gottlieb..YesWe were interested in that point of
view in a chemical modification that would retain its 1-4pnotic
action, meaning sleep producing, .not hypnosis, and be very
active, so that there was only a small quantity needed, and it
be tasteless, and soluble in liquids, and that sort of thin;.
Mr. Ralston. So the K pill was a chloralhydrate type of
drug?
Dr. Gottlieb. I will put it this way. Chloralhydrate
seemed to me to be the best you could have done with the state
of the art as it was.
Mr. Maxwell. To the best of your knowledge, were K pills
or K tabliets ever utilized operationally?
Dr. Gottlieb. I am Confused on that point. To the best
of my knowledge, we didn't have any that were good enough to
use. pow, that doesn't mean there couldn't have been times
that chloralhydrate was suggested or used. But I don't have a
clear memory of that.
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Yqrimacing
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you.:=..1z7d!tb-sfspec
Dr .�:-Gott.
� ��;:
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"A' irialrft171t% � t .tea�tefll' " .-5�44t 4iVf. . 46,
e 4
ANIPet:r'44sit..*1 14trligilatEt0;1:4r. *.�
Youiae .:.7
43, thera so th meing that
� � -.4 ���,.. � - � � �
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Mr ::!Maxwell.
that'in..factithey-yere.adm nistored:
"
Theknitiing,oftbrows,-Wh ch..7.:.tako7'.not.to be agreement,
referred to theutilization0fIth.e.,:phrase "K tablets" in a CSI
umber220710 whiCleferS'to MKDELTA materials, and
-
� �
describes them a"certain'chemicaland biological materials
(including K and L tablets) capable of producing human behavioral
aven't read those.
-- 50
9 understand that..don't have any evidence
� "�-�
A
or physiological changes. And this was issued on 22 July 1960::
and replaced DDP notice 220-L dated 20 October 1952. That
suggested to me, not necessarily that they were ever used
operationally, but that DDT at that time considered itself to
have such material available.
Dr. Gottlieb. That is best explainable by me by saying
that there were many requests for this sort of thing, always
to be answered in the negative, in the sense of trying to get
into a building and needing to overpower a guard, durinc;
Vietnam War to capture a courier that we knew had documer:ts
of interest, and that sort of thing. And the capability, I
guess, would be considered to be something about chloralhvdra
or that state of the art.
Mr. Maxwell. If a request came for a K pill or N ta51;.:t.
to whom would it be referred and to the best of your
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recollection,-,what-was-..thechain?...
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Dr. GottliebI:thinkff:t.here would have to be an approva
And I think that CSI states by the DDP in some way. So then
would be a necessityforit to be issued. And there would bi
prior explanation.to:whoever the desk people who were handli;
the request from the field about what the capability was.
And in most cases that I can'remember it was not adequate.
if that was acceptable, then -- well, I didn't answer -- it
would certainly be:referred to TSD. And we would either
discuss it, if we felt'it:was.useful or not with the Medica
Staff some aspects of i
Mr. Mar,Yell. Would this come into Headquarters from an
operational unit?
Dr. Gottlieb. Yes.
Mr. Maxwell. And then it would be referred through the
DDP to TSS, or directly to --
Dr. Gottlieb. Well, it might be discussed with the peop
in TSD that were involved with that field beforehand. And i
it was decided that the area division was interested, then
it would have to co to the DDP for appro-J1.
(:iitness confers with counsel.)
(Off the record discussion.)
25 :1r. Maxwell. sack on the record.
24
25
There is a me:lorandum for Cr�e 7.DPC dated 21 *lay 1952 or;
the subject, OSI proposal for an interim fiC.d progra:1,
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research'efforts:were evenafter:readingthis.
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Mr1;?'1,1axwell. ayipthe..d.7ision that you did
,..yr.,,,,_-_,%�;.:,..-'''-'
earlier, it made.me:wonderLhow you would draw those lines. And
,�'.v ,;,!4....-4,,,--el, � -�,.......--,..,..L,, ,1
.. --,,,-;::',-.:,....,'...i-X-.--J:::f.;:5�e, ..i.,.;.:;tiri.,:l�-:-.�-.
- '.- ,-��:----.:-:-:'-.5.:5-:.,.7....tN...:71-,ks:,�.ttf -- 1:..4.,- - -�
one of our .obvious,concerns)las.been to try to understand
. ....�.;,.:.-7.::;;47�V,t.'-:-..;'-3-.0,4*.4.,;-1.:'..�
organizationally how-theresearch,was_set up and controlled,
�:-",:�..i"i.'itr.:r'�-W:;.'..t& .-1. : , .� ; . .-,7''''ai.t�i'l.,'-...-.:,
what communications excsted;J:anCwhat was the effect of the
�.---C.".-'.:.X,!4?..,:-4.:fv:..-.1-�
compartmentation,..and.what kinds of experiments were done
� Y��--1-.,..:�.''.._.�
outs so o , an where we-have not good records, but -a--
�.:':- . �
little bit more firsthand-information.
�-,-:-..,.....:���: ---:.::::,:�2:�.1:,.-,_.L........
.;.....:-.--7-,;:�22-.7::.�,!-!�.:,-7:'--,-'-. .
On the second page-of ..that'same memo it indicates that:
.. .A.:.� ..;::...,
"OTS will refer all requests .for the use of ARTICHOKE materials
- ;�� .-:-:�:�--.C;;-J-4-:-..::;�:������',: �
by the operational or area offices to I&SO for coordination
:�.-:���:7-..?,'4.'0.7,4,-..':�:���: .
and approval of such use:It is the basic policy that use of
�� ., , ....7,;c---,,,--;:, 1.: -.� .
ARTICHOKE ,materials by non-professional case officers will be
discouraged or prohibited."
In your experience with ARTICHOKE, although you already
indicated that you were not involved in administration of
ARTICHOKE materials, do you recall requests coming to TSS
or coming to your office in TSS or TSS in general, for the use
of ARTICHOKE materials, and the methods of responding to such
requests?
Dr. Gottlieb. I don't remember any requests like that.
23 But my remembrance would be stimulated by these memos that we
24
25
certainly would have fumed them over -- we didn't consider
we had an ARTICHOKE capability in the manner that I defined
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tk e -
� ar't ih; ' � S' /"*.e. I t5t...gtif4.�4,21.=..:4. ei....4txgk, -
1:41171=-JL ,4450, 4Air-
-447.4,4,34".4-akw ,
1tAi":1h:laTn;facilit had'no'MD that worked for us
.,--,t;,.-;,,;,:_:.4,::-_e_.---;;,-5.,..egz.4-�-,
who was was:mkilled'or-practi in this*kind of technique. So
. -- _t4..--,,,,-_:-:,-,,,-.3:-f;s4-k.-._. ,.�... ,
. ?:-2--z:lf.,;;;
we surely 'would have-referred.it'over iether to the Medical
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4-,-4,--,4:-2,t."4,-tt4:�W-IAA Ar.-�
Staff, or in thiS'case-:.i!am-stire:the'Security Office.
- �
� '
Mr. Maxwell.,�Dolyou:recall:any-:�..itay in which the operational
�,..;����_,.:- A � �
units might. have learnedabOilt':I&SO's capability, or the
Medical Staff's'capabilityfor such interrogation?
�-� �
Dr. Gottlieb*Thatis asgood question, because it might.
�
be that in briefings that TSS at that time gave -- but: I-don't
remember that specifically, the only thing I can think of was
that we would have mentioned it in terms of technical capa-
bility available for operations.
Mr. Maxwell. Perhaps you would play that out a little bit.
When an officer was beings tationed abroad, would he in fact
come through a reeducation process, a retraining process
whereby he would be told by Medical Staff, TSS, or the like
what capabilities there did exist?
Dr. Gottlieb. I remember such a process, an effective
process, coming in or being open in the last five or six
years I was in the CIA. Before that was a much more informal
kind of thing. It could have or couldn't have happened,
depending upon how alert and thorough the desk was at which it
was being prepared in Headquarters. Certainly some people
came over to us to find out what can you fellows do for us
overseas, how can you help us, how can you support our
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����� .rs�����.,11.� 4���,:x� ,
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' 3,-*7 � - , .- . .- . - " ,.,...0..,,--�,4.,......,�..c,..i,..c. ,4,-,w
TO Flk,R E T,41.1.-74,-;0! ,0.
,DzT.L% . : .--,i+-%si
2,44 ..,.,:.,:i4".7"...'7,:�4114Anik'''44.14441'. 1.47
,4_!-- 7t.i.�.-,r'7.
.:',-:-,.??,A?,i, &az TI.4.1..,..vwx,....,.,-0 4.. ...i�glift-.1'42W,P1'� �
i4.-,04,�:.:- , 4.-044:-.-4,-, ;c�-. . -0: ..7' k.�;.+'�?k�-� � �
� operations.Butthe,pointIrram making;'is that there was no
..:i..:.,�-f---...':.;;:,,,:'�-.1�Jf'''',e4 - `'W.:,..---�,rj."..g-Zifils.00;i6"-::$;:f '
thoroughl"'comPrehensivedon't.rnt. to use the word fool-
proof;Thut-effective.way.:ofdoing.this so that this almost
..ii
always happened:',i;"1-4.--. , .1.-,...�.,,�,,,...,�,�,,,,: �
...-�:�_ ::.;:.i.::,;,,::?.4i.2.,-,.4���,-,.:�,�.4..�.. ,ji., ,.. 7, ,,..;,. ,
.,�:,I.i...,:::-,-..:."--4i,*;.;,/' V.,"4,?.211,,,4..,,,,,T.,...,,,.�.k.r.--::-.74:
_
(Witness confers with counsel.)
,....1- e__.
Dr. Gottlieb. You questions was, would most case officers
.:-
going overseas come overTin some organized trade through TSS
an
n that way get expos :to t e capabilities we had, or
interest we had discussed.with them, and in that way ARTICHOXE
perhaps was getting around? And my answer was, that process
of case officers being prepared for overseas work and routinely
and pretty surely coming through TSS didn't become an effective
system until much later. At this period the word got around
in various ways. A little later, not now, I would go on
. ,
fairly regular trips overseas, partly for the purpose, when
I had supervisory responsibilities in TSD, of just checking
on how the support of our overseas units was going, and partly
to brief stations on capabilities. -Where-appropriate, those
things would come up. Sometimes I held a little seminar with
all of the case officers in a station somewhere. And they
would .ask me, what can you fellows do in this area.
Mr. Maxwell. In regard to general training within the
Agency for those people who would become case officers who
would move into DDP, not so much a reeducation process for
those people who had been overseas, but for those people who
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� 40.10 � !. t." .f.-�lie"..- OAP ' " '
4g471�&41�*�� ..t: * � �.'"P-Vt,Ala 4 . � .***ii
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,"4440,. � 'alWellrel&Wf4k,f!ti;f41.4404,11.4
l'ae.,...w..z......06�14,:ge�alre.," N4'.4:44,,y,4 � ----"." ,..t.,..r..A....L....*:
le:44.:4:10 '
., Ostee.irV:464:::Iir2.4rIFA,It4,3ithAiirrnitt:!�:;:**13kt::;:";:k.�:-.
� 1--4:444--.Igetr,t4.1...-4 ,.;��-�.:.�414'.,54 _ 7t- - izo..y,,..;:eri. �Itl VA fi 4r.:;�/ .... ;,.,1
1. " ..12:rt-11,gr. � ,-, %At!' ,,,iti,11"' trea::��� ."*.' -���efe:,.....-,,,,,z,�1.:', ...fr-T,-
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- 4 re.:�-eir ...f." �,�-,.... � r- ._ - - - ,
wQra,going.overseas fi_Irsttime,s,i,mi:TSS involved in
. -.--,:-:-:�=-:-..i.4.'�DX,, '4:4Vr, . ,ezd...i:.ge�-� ,t..",,d,�-� �
� �'/-15,�:-!,'4��y� :14- ��'. ....1.- i
briefing-or.trainingpeopleTabout -Capability such as this?
� � -:�,- .4L",':"� -.' - � - -.,, e ,- � ^�� - .
-
.Dr..-7Gottlieb -.TSS_;from-.as'far: ack-as I can remember
/
-- and rememberfora'ilong.,time -/.was�not -in operations in
-A,,,
41.A,. e4.-k--1,0;.41-0444,-44,----.
. , -
TSS, I was just'inresearchand,development, so I would not
-� :. ..., ./ 7)..:.::::"I'.'....z75.1?-tiStIr", f410A,..,1/4,,:.:.:I.5_k r.:.:::".... .".
. �,,,,:.......3.3..t..5.1; i.f.:-.�.::.1.41,pr.:.49i. _. ....i.4.3,.�.....-'- st.,�' -7.2.-";;CI, .
have gotten involved.an:.thosebriefings and what I called the
.1-:�.J..:6--...t0it-y0,1/4.S.i.-.:.--�,,-.;
something liiCe%�, through
this'going':T)ormal intelligence channels
; .:
_..�...s.,.; ,., ,-,'-'t
to an Army.unit -N,--�
.� - -����=-,�-� ,----?,..,,,-7- �:--.--c---
--:.' ',----
6711g11.14=3.578.ed it informally with
.:.:7.7.:-2.`._%, . �.., .A..-.1, .-�-; .i'1.1.� A-Y- ,7.7,-,,-,.--z -",-, :-�,..7.er - .
S013:�.:' I guessTif.wefound soMethingjike this and we thought
�- �����.:.;_-;.,,:,:c.,-.-.4,;?--y -7
-u-.' -.zrc .
it related to a SOB'interest'ye.might ta.ke it up and circumven
4:4T.i
the rather laborioug'channelst
� '.-....f-�-�,-;-V,--1,_�_,'-,-,:i-i:-.%.--1_,IA-!-.:...,,,-,.', -
--
Mr. Maxwel1.7 h process
�----�-�-�--�,..:5..- -----,-5,-zwz-;:,_>,,,---,,,,,..,--
110,4 ;; t; � :_,,.:.
.----e�-k-r,., ,. � ..- of vulnerability studied
�',-.7:-..:-.:ii::!--- 4 -� -
y ventla C e auJe IL wculu seeA , me tfldt -on c
� � - � *..-=.i,:::-;,-,,:?4t--'�'-;-'iZ.Y.:.-5,.k.i.4?�::...
� � �-� �-��-���%-,f.-;.--i`ef-. -,--"sz=-!-:9,c--* �� - .
this was raised as a'possible interest,
�,;.:-,::::-.:::22-',;-*:--.:1
been raised before.in'otherdn'stances
as
am sure
Dr. Gottlieb. Can I stop just a minute, because
it had
we
might
be able to do something that would be helpful here.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Gottlieb. I sort of broke you off in mid-question.
What I suggest I do is, I have been looking for an opening to
make a comment -- I don't mean an opening where I can say
anything I want, but a opening that would tie into a subject
which we are talking about. And-s-ince you brought up vulner-
ability studies, ever since I watched one of the public
sessions on TV, specifically the one where Colby testified on
21 Ii the toxins, and where Helms and Karamessines did, I have a
22
23
24
25
thing about what I consider to be very misleading things that
went on there. And I would like to comment on them. Now,
they have to do with vulnerability studies, is why they come u
here, and they have to do with vulner ity studies done by
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1.4�:e
''.�;Si.--On..D..a.:;170.any?1......0.,,i-l.1 i
�.7...e.....e. ' ' t� 11- a ,t;.i � i . 1 h-. . :2-L
-
1 V s
r '
-)
.....-.
s-1," � ' � �
'Mr / Maxwell�.Aa .:good :a 'place 'as any.
.__,, .-;. . _ -;
..,,,. .
.-,,...--.-,...- , _.
Dr...Gottlic13..:`.:rt'think'it-i.tai-Senator Hart that wads
. ..,,
. :-.f4i, ',2t'ekil:45S-.-ige-1.7.- -
particularly-Interested'in'these-vulnerability studies that
- ,
s?"--
- �
wereoreceived.bTSLfrom�SOD and included in a file labeled
a place to put tha
MKNAUMI. Are you:following me?
Mr. Maxwell.
Dr. Gottl&eb. nd there was lulf,,! a point made at the
hearings, ana I can't remember whether this was an explicit
point, but it surely was a strongly inferred point, that the
CIA had something, and the inference Wd3 something sinister,
to do with these vulnerability studies. And the comment I
want to make is that in fact CIA Isad nothing to do with eithe
of the vulnerability studies I mentioned, CIA was simply a
recipient, as I am sure many other Government groups were, of
a report of SOD work done, not in response to any CIA require
ment that I know of that they were working against, but done
in their own research program, and quite properly, I think, t
study the vulnerability of this country to covert BW; attacks.
And I would like to straighten that out, because I think a
grave disservice was done in many ways, but mostly it was jus
a distortion of what really happened, that although CIA was t
recipient of a report describing those studies, CIA had nothi
to do with generating the requirement, nor did it have anythi
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to do in myremembrance withcarrying ittouti-Inordoes it ha
anything to-do.withanjproposed'Operation-CIA.i.hought of or
---:-
ever got
.-VgRY.A4.0Mg,W2.:-
involved; in. f And 'I ?arf'afr zdethe %oppos i te impressic
- .. ,,,..:... . .. . .,:.
was made
' . ,,.
That 'is -on;'point;
. ..,... .,, ,...:�_.7,-..,3t.,r;�;-�.-�,-, '-.'�,':.,..).t'i'7' i ' - .� -
. :'7;/,-.'..1 :13; e-'N-1, :-,.
The second point 'was .that7there was also an inference tha
:.:.. j.:....,,,:i.z....i.---
. ... ..
somehow this � was.-harmfuor; potentialfy 'harm. ful from the sta
:2X4WW.i....i.W,,..7-,;
pOint of contamination-to'eitherthe-building-where the water
system was tested or the subway. And I.don't think that is
an accurate deduction-to-be-drawn;-because in the case of the
building, as I remember reading the report, it was just a dye
that was put into the water to see how it diffused. And in
the case of the subway system, as I remember it,
was a
perfectly normal organism-that is around everywhere, and it
doesn't harm anybody. Or maybe it was even a tracer. But I
don't know if I made that point clearly. I know there was an
impression made on people's mind that, one, CIA had something
sinister to do with these studies. And two, that the studies
were somehowharmful to the structures or systems that were
involved in them.
Mr. Maxwell. For the sake of just continuing along this
point for a moment, you said that CIA had nothing to do with
generating requirements for those studies. Would it he fair
to say that CIA had nothing to do with the ideas -- with the
possible proposal of such studies by SOD rather than limiting
it to the requirement?
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21 11, discussion to SDO because of its interest in both offensive and
22 defensive chemical and biological warfare. But in that circum-
s--
_ . -
conside that,m 'a ore general
-c.P.
,---.�7L---4-i*.:o----- -0. ,-.4)--s- ,..ve.,-,-.e---,--.z...--,�f;�:.-. -- -
-remembrance'of.those activities in
. '..72E-,a: ,,,294i7Ah� . ,1,-;,--7�,�:. - �
that period-was-e.:that-we hadnOthing to-do with it except to be
-
Dr."Gottlieb;
I would agree with-qt.-
, �
�
the recipientin-.case:we'were Interested in a report of their
.440X104A4A1c.
-yourrecollection'that.no one
knowledgeable o part.'�.of:.CIAas.fto.MKNAOMI discussed
,
with
personnel from -SDO-possible.vulnarability studies,
..);;:!:�044-11.-0474',0.,F-,4,';-.7-;Ye..i, �
possible .applicability-of-Vulnerability studies to things the
Agency .was -concerned -about-or -that .might -be -useful for the
'
Agency? - -I want .to -make -sure -that -the -point -is made that while
�
or
atatemen
the
the formal sense
within the Servici
in the kind of
on the part of
report like this,i.
le to contaminate
CIA may not -have -generated -the .requirement .in
of the way the requirement would-be generated
it is indeed your point that CIA was -involved
discussions that would precede such proposals
SOD. For instance,'if.in fact you received a
or another report that said it would be possib
an entire building; or a battleship, or an installation of
some sort by adding 'a chemical to the water system, that it
would appear it would be natural to bring up that kind of
stance it would appear that the CIA information and concern,
24 while not part of a requirement process, also maybe part of
25 ! SOD framing the vulnerability study without any sinister
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.
.:. � -� ,...
:....-.s.-v�-� ,----!...").�.
... ..Toc
77 -.-
:-.�-irtr..;_c_t�.#-,--g � : '''''.--f.,..4.-,,.. ...
connotations what5oeverZ7t4
� . ,. . _ ., .,�,
" ��:::- ���� . a:f,,l's-1)�!�7-,,,..-....,..-..-;-1:J---;,5,:11'--:,...
Dr. GottliebI'thinkunderstand what you mean. And in
� --,*�'�-�,-- -,:. .
best reo to- t is that- -wouldn't put it the way you hay
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I would put 'it simply...that'SOD had as'an important part of it
, �
mission-to*worry-about=the7vulnerability of'the-USA to covert
BW attackI'consider-that:oriecof-their main-reasons for bei
Those vulnerability'studies-werettaken-entirely as far as I
am concernedTin.the-coritext'Of:that-non-CIA related requireme
Now, the-study.havinTjbeen.planned-and.approved and finally
executed;-I-have-no'problem-in-seeing-someone -in SOD saying,
you fellows might be interested in this. That is my point.
Mr. Maxwell; My point was that it is neither sinister
necessarily or unlikely that part of the formative process of
vulnerability studies was consultation between CIA and SOD.
Dr. Gottlieb. My answer is that that could have happened
I don't know that it did- in this case. It certainly was in
my mind not the major precipitating cause for this thing
happening. That is my point.
Mr. Maxwell. The other point that I think should be made
and should be reflected in the record, is that one of the
concerns on the part of the Committee was the fact that SOD
apparently conducted vulnerability studies without the approv
or knowledge of those either public or private officials
responsible for either the civil defense, the FDA administrat
or the people who administer the subway system in New York.
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z6t
, -". �-� -.� '� '`�-�:".....'�Wr"-;-:,,7.1'`,. ��-�"4!'.- �.�'52$�-�� '7.' V�Y � :!.�.. 4-' . �
vy--sudies
.:,!%.7.c..1"if.,11V.,11).....,%!J!.�
_.):.i.i
have been ulnerabilit t s using what ha been perceived1,1.ould be made is that the
� - � -..--!,�-�-,...:,..-:c:-...�;:-..:,,--:,'-',....t--).:.�.,-,-..z.....:t5.,.-:�,:..%,-,,:-.� .
... ..,
�'':-�:-':�.-:::..Ari-,:0...--:=:':-:-.,..:17-:::-':�"''''''''.. .-
as harmless agents'which�apparently have resulted in incapaci
� � �*
�;;.-�;-;�.,---(:�-�,�-�:,::���2-i.i.:71�47,,:;',.7:' .. � �
tation and/or deathGiven'that, the point that an agent is
-'4'-'7...'';Wrz.:7:".;:is�=�"'":-7,1:-:---...-.:-. -,....
regarded as safe and.normal'has.to be seen in the context of
what we later have discovered.about the results.
. � .:. �- -.,-..: .,.:1..--,,���:�,,:rx;.� ..,:
.."`.,. .1.:1-:,%.�:...- -
� .........f.2:7::;i:.::::: '
Dr. Gottlieb. 1 am getting off the main point I want to
make. I think the CIA was drawn into this thing by associati
and not by direct participation or anything like that. And -
that is what bothered�_me.
Mr Maxwell The memorandum from also includ
a paragraph which I would like to read, page 9. The numberin
is up at the righthand top. I haven't reprinted all the page
of th4t. It indicates: "The second reason to doubt OMB
lagggeli came out of the question I raised as to whether any
Accidents had arisen from the use of P.D.25. He said in a ve
positive way, none. As it turned out, this answer could be
called overly positive, for later on in the evening I was
discussing the matter with
where I had gone a
insistence. when asked this same question, replied,
yes, and added spontaneously, there is a case
4111111111
knows about. a woman and physician who had been
subject to depression to some extent took LP 25 in an experi-
ment and became severely and steadily depressed and committee
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or that particular
section in it.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall learning about similar events
prior to' 1953, or similar experiences?
Dr. Gottlieb. You mean suicides that followed? No, I
don't recollect that.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Maxwell. Did you want to add anything to your answer?!
1
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall the research that had been done
Dr. Gottlieb. No.
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While.,the:,connection is not
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definite,.:knowledge'of:-this.could hardly'have allowed the
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positive !-:answer permitted himself. This case is a
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sharp warning to_us toTevOid.thi4..agent-in subjects who are
depressed, or'who ha-ire,been.eubjeCt'.to-depression."
I was wonderin4'whether..yoU'reCall'reading that?
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Dr. Gottlieb.-...YI didn't: remember this report at all. I had
no recollection of either the 'report
i
up to that time by TSS or any other agency in CIA or by other,
Governmental agencies or academitions that were known to you, 1
1
about the effects of LSD?
Dr. Gottlieb. I certainly don't recall that now. And if -I
we are going to go into that, I would want to have my memory
refreshed.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall the kind of research that was :
going on at that time in regard to LSD?
TO
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materialcomingrosry'deskcirilot of .ee S
other fields. An.
I just couldn't discuss�that''comprehensively now, I mean in
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Mr. Rals ton * Do'you'recalll..ever seeing or reading repo:
;
any detail:::
EWIRIIINIWHAT
Dr. Gottlieb..DOI-3',reca rea at now? No.
am sdre that-I read'reports.on LSD. That is not my respor:s(
But I don't remember them noW..
Mr. Lenzner. Did you ask him whether he had seen a
special report?
Mr. Ralston. Any report, not special, from IIIIIIIIW
Mr. Lenzner. This report, by the way, that Elliot had
asked about is dated 1952, the report by.'
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall independently the kinds of
research that TSS had begun to'CiommisSion in this area at t
time?
Dr. Gottlieb. Not really. I have trouble specificall'
recalling who was doing research that early for us.
Mr. Maxwell. And there is a memorandum dated 26 Nove:7
1952 on the subject of Project ARTICHOKE from Colonel Edwa
And in paragraph 2(h) it indicates that the Chief of OTS
indicated that OTS would restrict itself to laboratory tyi
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research'ind7experimentation
trying:.th'recalllthe.kindso
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Maxwell say-that OTS
within'thejim v itation2o ..-th 7,eir:t.facilities-specific research
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err.that,help�'you at all in
A
;experimentation that was done?
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.1 aspects of Project ARTICH0KE.1?*4:,Do'.you'recall what that might
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will Conduct
be?
Dr. Gottlieb.
���
"-�
Mr. Lenzner.- I wonder if at some
this report in total? �
Mr. Maxwell. Ten pages or 50, maybe a little bit more.
Dr. Gottlieb. We thought you said it wasn't complete.
Mr. -Maxwell. I didn't reproduce it completely, because
I wanted to try to restrict tha amount of material.
Mr. Lenzner. Can we look at the full report?
Mr. Maxwell.
Mr. Lenzner.
Mr. Maxwell.
point
how
long
Certainly.
Not now, but just at our leasure.
Surely. When we go back to the office
Was
tonight, if you would like to do that, I Can find it.
There is a memorandum dated 4 December 1952 for Morse
Allen on the ARTICHOKE conference of 4 December. On page 3
it indicates thatelfign. gave a brief summary of the trip
tiPastalit
in June by an ARTICHOKE team which I have some
information about.
TOP CRET
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-Maxwell
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about.the 5Viby:..the Navy team.
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There is verylittle-information,.available. about the later
����:'-:.':,;::"'..:::��141-7--7c---g-': z - zr-W. ;'1:;7':���
trip. And,I was:wonderingifyOu:recall, A, what the Navy
�
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was.doingaethatftime,:whatitheyijater:refer to, the Navy
We'ita
research. which. was' being conducted. "And "apparently the Navy
... _ , .
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was the only Service branch that was engaged in research. And
secondly, whether-that'trip-differed in any significant way
from the other ARTICHOKE
Dr. Gottlieb. '. The only.way'I can help you is just to
confirm what you have said, that .1 have a vague recollection
of the Navy doing some work in this specific field of
narcohypnosis in respect to interrogation. But I have no more
details of that.
Mr. Ralston. Dr. Gottlieb, do you recall if there was
Navy intelligence involved in this work?
Dr. Gottlieb. I really don't. My recollection, now that
we are
talking about -- so now that it is mentioned here in
paragraph 12 that it was a university contract that the Navy
was working through. And that was my recollection just then.
Mr. Maxwell. Do you recall what the research was about,
just in general?
Dr. Gottlieb. That it was in this narcohypnosis, possibly
use of barbituates, or closely related to ARTICHOKE.
TOP -- CR ET
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pproved for Release: 2022/02/01 CO0095085
"tri.4."--.7.�
had a.system:.for;L:opingwithl:that'problem, how they got cone
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and hoW:they.got:"volunteeis,or-how'they handled that. 1
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don't'think'we'second'guessed*them-on'it.
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Mr. MaxwellWith'regard'to'a'point that was raised earl:
.=�-
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in regard to Mr:'.-Dannerman'S'comment'in the January ARTICHOKE
60M.OWiik..ig$0AtS,
meetingi'in'regard.!to7.facilities-for:.criminale and the
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criminallyinsane:being':usedas;testing.grounds, can you
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recallat_forms:ofconsentiinighthave been expected_in
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situationS.inVolvingcrIminals'!orcriminally insane for
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