TAKE ALL--GORBACHEV URALS VISIT

• Document Type: FOIA
• Keywords: UFO SPECIAL COLLECTION
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 0005517526
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 15
• Document Creation Date: June 24, 2015
• Document Release Date: January 31, 2011
• Case Number: F-2010-00651
• Publication Date: April 26, 1990

~C00175690
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cLns uNCLASSZFIEn
CLAS UNCLASSIFIED
AFSN LD2604205290C
DDAT 900426
SLIM Moscow TASS International Service in Russian 1222 GMT 26 Apr 90
SUBJ TAKE ALL--Gorbachev Urals Visit
Full Text Superzone of Message
1 [Excerpts] Sverdlovsk, 26 April (TASS special correspondent)-- We are
transmitting the full text of an account of Mikhail Gorbachev's stay in
the Urals.
2 What needs to be done to live better, to radically change the
socioeconomic situation in the country? This question arose repeatedly
during the meetings of M.S. Gorbachev, USSR president, general secretary
of the CPSU Central Committee, in labor collective.: in the Urals. Today
is the second day of Mikhail Sergeyevich's stay in Sverdlovsk.
3 Yesterday evening at the works management of Uralmash he had a meeting,
lasting hours, with workers,-engineering and techn~cal staff,
representatives of the labor collective council, and with the party aktiv
of the association. Since the auditorium could not accommodate everyone
who wanted to take part in the frank, controversial conversation, its
progress was relayed to the works square where many hundreds of Uralmash
people had gathered.
4 I have a tremendous desire to have a talk with you in a calm, businesslike
atmosphere, M.S. Gorbachev said, opening the meeting. What is worrying
us? The fact that the Urals, which has done, is doi~ and_will d_o so much _
for the country--this mighty region is now experiencing great distortions
and strains in its development. Not only production and economic ones but
also social ones. And this is already spilling out into certain moods.
.The situation is worrying us.
5 These last few hours of contacts and conversations with the Uralmash
people shows that the correct information is reaching us. People are
confirming what was already known to us, which gives rise to a certain
disquiet. In any case, one can evidently speak of certain deformations
having taken place in the development of the urals' production forces. On
the one hand, a mighty cadre and scientific potential has been created,
still capable of performing further great tasks, and on the other hand
there are problems of ecology and social tension.
6 M.S. Gorbachev asked the Uralmash people to express their ideas on this
point.
7 Our meeting and my arrival in your Oblast, he continued, precisely
coincides with a very important stage in the development of the economic
reform.
8 What we have gone through is like a preparatory stage of that reform, and
we have come to understand the country in which we live. Perhaps in the
main we have understood its illnesses which, along with achievements,
undoubtedly exist. We have tried many approaches in the economic sphere,
new methods of management. Some have succeeded, others not, and here and
there we have simply miscalculated.
9 But at all events this was the period which, especially when we are
talking about one of the greatest changes in the country's history, we
have passed through, and now we have the foundations of a legal order, and
Approve for Release ~a t
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economic experience. We have acquired experience; we have started
thinking differently and we have started talking to each other
differently. An environment has come about in which one can solidly and
radically begin economic reform.
10 Therefore talk is important, from these angles too. What is more, I see
anxiety. Tt has appeared both in the press and here. How are we going to
live? And in general it touches precisely upon what we are going to do in
order to live better, so that the situation should change for the better.
Evidently people's patience is already at its limit. So from that point
of view the trip is very important for me.
11 We have conducted two USSR Presidential Councils, joint sessions of the
USSR Council of the Federation and the Presidential Council. We will
return to that again, and then, as they say, we will go to the people in
order to weigh everything up thoroughly. Such a change needs to be made
by everybody, together, if we understand each other. Sharp turns are
calculated in what is envisaged to be proposed to ;.he working people, to
the country. But we need to do things in such a way that we travel this
road with the least losses.
12 I.I. Stoganov, general director of the Uralmash association who spoke next
gave a short description of the enterprise and told of the tasks and
problems facing the collective. [passage omitted: Stroganov quoted
supporting free market, listing things which hinder progress to that aim]
13 LD2604205290TAKE1
14 [Excerpts] (Stroganov continues) Under the existing state of affairs and
with the very low rents the association sustains losses each year
amounting to 7 million rubles [R] on housing alone. Children's preschool
establishments and a number of other f~^;~;*idc 9re '~-~-c_~^.~icing,---too.u.~~
have 45,000 apartments on our books, but today there are 12,000 people fn
the housing line, because we build housing but are also obliged to give it
to other people who do not work at "Uralmash."
15 (Gorbachev) Wherein lies the sickness, and not just that of "Uralmash,"
but of the other works in the Urals economic region too?
16 (I.I. Stroganov) We made a major mistake when we created additional jobs;
for a time we forgot about the person, about the social base. The
regional sickness seems to lie in precisely this. And second. All of us
together, we made a real mess of agriculture. It's the time not to give
help, but for everyone to restructure themselves fundamentally in this
way...
17 (Gorbachev) I noticed that labor productivity is?nevertheless quite decent
at your enterprise. Is this linked with modernization of production,
price formation or with the intensification of labor?
18 (Stroganov) Unfortunately. with intensification...
19 (Gorbachev) When you say that according to your calculations the
changeover to the new economic relations could ruin machine- building,
which calculations do you have in mind?
20 (Stroganov) These calculations have been done on the basis of the
deductions that are being planned: 30 percent to the Union budget, 27
percent to the Republican budget, plus new types of payment for land,
electricity and labor resources. If .you add all oL- this together, then we
are left with less than 30 percent. That is to say that nothing remains
for forming capital funds. And this is a key question for us.
21 (Gorbachev) Do you compare your products with similar competitive models?
What is the difference between them?
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22 (Stroganov) By way of example I'Il say that our quarry excavator is
absolutely competitive with foreign machines of the same class. We supply
this equipment to Soviet customers for R90,000: There hs never been an
instance when we have sold each excavator abroad for less than 600,000.
[passage omitted: G.N. Bashilov, director of the heavy machine-building
scientific research institute, speaks on the new atmosphere, the current
reliability of Uralmash output, the Ioss of designers and technologists to
the cooperatives]
23 A.S. Osintsev, deputy general director of the Association for Economics,
touched on the question of how one should asess the monopoly of
"Uralmash," he said. We are a long way away from becoming a monopoly, for
the level of our output depends not so much upon ourselves as it does in
many cases upon a mass of component manufactures and actions by suppliers.
That is the main reason why we are behind competitors on the world market.
[sentence distinct]
24 The economist devoted a significant part of his speech to the problems of
leasing relations at the enterprise. In part, he cited the example of
people refusing to go over to leasing, believing that it would not be
advantageous for them under existing circumstances.
25 M.S. Gorbachev asked the deputy director to answer the question: What, in
his view, causes society's concern when the question arises of the
radicalization of reforms and of us having to take consistent steps toward
a market economy? What has frightened people and caused alarm?
26 It seems to me, the economist replied, that apprehensions arise as a
result of the losses without which there can be no shift to a market
economy.
27 LD2704080790TAKE2 -- _ ~ ____
28 [Excerpts] It cannot avoid falls in the volumes of production. This is
the first thing. And, second, we probably will not be able to avoid
unemployment. I believe that these two factors are the chief ones. They,
most of all, are making people worried.
29 (M.S. Gorbachev) But if it is a case of having to rake this path, and I
have understood from the speeches here and from numerous conversations
during the visit to the enterprise, that everyone realizes that this is
the path we have to take, then it is necessary for everything to be
thought through and weighed up beforehand, for everything to be discussed.
The essence of matters should be known not only at the center, it should
be understood not only by economic personnel. Ordinary people and work
collectives should understand precisely what it is all about.
30 We do not wish to rush headlong into the market, and such an approach is
unacceptable to us. The transfer should be carried out on the basis of a
considered policy. We must, particularly in the initial stage, have a
grip on this process and regulate it by means of a price mechanism.
31 Social protection measures must also be provided for. Finally, it is
necessary to think of the fact that a process of regrouping, and possibly
a laying off, of the working force will take place in manufacturing. But
our cooperatives are only just coming into being, the service sector is
not developed, just as everything connected to trade is not developed.
For example we have enormous loads on our retail trade capacity, whereas
the world has already gone through all that. Nearly always they have a
ratio where the number of people employed outside of manufacturing is
greater than the number working in material manufacturing. In other
words, everything here is stil the other way around.
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32 Basically everything -- is in material production. So, we still have much
work, we can employ people. But a system of re-training is needed, a plan
of action is needed. This must be understood by everyone! I am convinced
that in our country today unemployment occurs where we do not think things
out, do not work things out. We shall keep our promise. When we are ready
to talk with people, when we have thought everything through, we shall
present well-thought out measures, we shall submit them to society's
judgement. They will have to be worked out in each region, in each labor
collective.
33 From the hall the request was heard for an opinion on the latest
publications in the press about the so-called economics of shock therapy
Polish-fashion.
34 (M.S. Gorbachev) So the press has frightened people? From this hall, from
Sverdlovsk, the whole press must be told, and the journlists who are here
present must learn and tell others: In these matters particularly
well-considered judgements are needed, publications. must .not carry only
the element of alarm.
35 The speech by A.R. Sagalovich, head of mechanical workshop No. 15,
touched on an important aspect of radicalization o. the reform. In my
opinion, he said, enterprises are entering the market economy by various
paths. This means it is necessary to take into account the state of the
basic assets of each specific plant. Some have mope worn assets and other
newer ones. ,
36 Today there is a leasehold law. But often, when the division of money in
the collective begins according to the coefficient of the share of work,
the system does not work. Where people are good the system really works.
Where the collective has not taken -shapedtdoes__nox_ oger~te~ ~_._._
37 The underestimation of the role of managers of collectives is connected on
this plane. Yes, there is a struggle against the administrative-command
system, but on the production level a paradox arises: I, for example, have
not been able to find a section chief for six months. No one wants it, no
one wishes to work as a foreman. Discipline in such a situation breaks
down. Even if you put a militiaman before the .shift ends. Tension in
relations between the workers and management is growing.
38 In order to advance further, the question needs to be asked regarding the
role of the manager, the organizer of production ar~d the specialists, and
regarding the responsibility for the course of economic reform and his
role in the course of that reform.
39 LD27040$2190TAKE3
40 [Excerpts] (M.S. Gorbachev) And don't you feel remote tremors in
connection with reform and a change in the situation: That it is already
necessary to prove one's right and entitlement by competence,
conscientiousness, and the capability to work better? For soon everybody
will have to prove this. Does not such a way of putting things have an
effect on discipline, on responsibility, and on conscientiousness?
41 (A.P. Sagalovich) it does not. Well, maybe to a curtain degree. Of
course much is connected to the payment for labor, but this system is not
working yet. My opinion is that at the level of the top manager of a
structural subsection, a factory, for example, it 's possible to manage
somehow in the old fashion. But further work must be carried out in
accordance with same other integral system.
42 I would like to share my thoughts on the problems of price-formation, the
workshop chief continued. It is, of course, difficult for me to judge on
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a countrywide scale, but I think that one of the criteria for limiting the
monopoly of enterprises must be a limitation of their profitability. Such
an experience exists abroad. And it is not worth us pursuing high prices.
43 Yu.F. Chebotarev, head of the social-cultural-service directorate of
"Uralmash," devoted his speech to the difficult problems of his work. In
part he raised the question of this area's unprofitability. As an exmaple
the cost of a square meter of new housing was brought up. It increases
with each passing year, but the payment per square meter is fixed as
previously. They have tried to touch on this question but have received a
decisive rebuff from the public.
44 (M.S. Gorbachev) How much housing do you have and what is the subsidy for
maintaining it?
45 (Yu.E Chebotarev) The subsidy from the works is almost R7 million...
46 (M.S. Gorbachev) Obviously many people would agree to take apartments as
their own property?
47 (Yu.F. Chebotarev) There is such an initiative, however the right of such
a transferral has not yet been given to the local soviets.
48 (M.S. Gorbachev) But this concerns your housing -- departmental..
49 (Yu.F. Chebotarev) Departmental -- yes it's departmental, however there
are many complicated issues here.
50 (M.S. Gorbachev) But this is a matter of handing them over for free. The
apartments are received, people live according to the norm. We are not
talking about those who are wafting. Their situation, of course, must be
improved. But those whose housing corresponds to the norms should have it
given to them as their own property, for free. And let them maintain
their apartments themselves and pay for this themselves. For comrades,
when we say that rents here are low --this--is- r-approach:--------
They reduced wages -- and at the expense of this they made housing cheap.
51 Naturally, this does not concern people in need, poor people. The state
is bound to take care of them. But as regards the basic mass it is
possible to act in this way. But then, when someone realizes that it is
his own apartment, then he will maintain it in a different way. And the
housing stock wil be in a completely different condition. Especially our
entrances.
52 Look at what the West does. There wages decide everything. Public stock
is very small. On the whole people live on their wages. They get, say,
2,000 dollars and immediately 30 percent go on housing and 11 percent on
taxes. Forty odd percent of their earnings has already gone.
53 We are used to: This is free, that's free -- and people do not see their
wages anyway. Now if they were to receive them in full and pay for
everything themselves, then it would be a completely different matter.
54 Apart from this, what does receiving housing as property mean? It means:
People have received property. One person, two, many. That is, market
relations appear in society.
55 So far this does not exist here. But the question must probably be
considered properly.
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57 [Excerpts] A.A. Tokminov, leader of a mixed-skill ;kompleksnyy] team,
recounted that at "Uralmash" the workers' initiative, labor effort and
fervor had dropped sharply recently. I am experiencing this in my own
brigade and in public work at the scientific and technical council, he
continued. If we stop the working man -- the producer of all things of
value -- from working well, then it will be very difficult to arouse him
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in the future and get him interested in something. At present the workers
who work well, quite honestly, do not understand who benefits by the
creation of artificial obstacles to prevent them from working even better
and to higher standards, and receiving worthy remuneration for this.
5$ (M.S. Gorbachev) I want to support your concern. The concept of producing
more and better in conditions of economic reform by a smaller number is a
key one. We have been throttled by egalitarianism [uravnilovka]. If we
don't properly value the labor of the worker, collective farm worker,
teacher, doctor and engineer, but keep on assessing it according to the
scale and the rate, we will not move forward. I h,:ve been told of cases
where surgeons, for instance, cannot carry out an important operation
without high-grade nurses. But a surgeon does not possess any rights to
encourage a specialist who, in his opinion, is worthy of a professor's
wage.
59 And what happens: Such a nurse leaves the team and the whole cycle of
complex operations falls apart. There is a similar picture everywhere.
60 In science also remuneration is according to ranks and degrees --- seniors,
juniors and scientific assistants. But the contribution to the common
cause over a year, over the last five years, which a man has contributed
to, hardly bothers anyone. But if his work was noticed because, according
to the contract, some amount was received thanks to this, then in any case
it was divided equally.
61 Let us agree: It is necessary to initiate a resolute struggle against
egalitarianism [uravnilovkoy], beginning with ever- workplace and every
working operation. Otherwise we will deprive ourselves of the opportunity
of constantly deriving benefit for society from the energy of talented
people. [passage omitted: Having thanked-t#e--USSR--president---in--the-name__
of the collective for visiting "Uralmash," P.N. Tobolov, chief of a
workshop, drew M.S. Gorbachev's attention to the poor labor conditions of
metalworkers]
62 A very great number of women are already working at our enterprise, V.F.
Boyankin, a smith from section Number 37, noted. They are working on a
sliding rota, meaning that it includes night shifts. What does a woman
who works on a sliding rota feel? You can already imagine, the worker
added, for you have seen our furnaces.
63 (M.S. Gorbachev) In general, the situation of women, above all, is an
indicator of the fact that our society needs changes. Let us acknowledge
this honestly. Take just the USSR Presidential Co>ncil -- there are no
women there. Take the other leading bodies -- it's the same dismal
picture. But on the other hand, they are working in places where there
shouldn't be any women at all, in hot workshops, o~. a three-shift system.
[passage omitted: opinions of labor collective council chairman Bogdanov;
war and labor veterans' chairman Yerykalov; Oblast executive committee
chairman Rossel]
64 LD2704084190TAKE5
65 (Excerpts] Summing up the results of the meeting M.S. Gorbachev said: Here
in the Urals huge masses of people are concentrated, who are dealing with
tasks in the economic, scientific and defense spheres that are of
importance for the country. And that role which Sverdlovsk and its labor
collectives are playing, and your anxieties and concern, all this has made
us come here. I think I as the president and the general secretary of the
CPSU Central Committee, and other members of the Soviet leadership ought
to pay more attention to the Urals.
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66 .This conference and the conversations with the workers of "Uralmash" are
of great importance for me. We have reached a stage in perestroyka when
one has to take decisions that are of very great importance for the
destiny of the country. And what people are thinking, the way they are
assessing the situation and the thigns they consider necessary to be done,
all this is very important now.
67 You obviously realize that I have a position of my own and my own
convictions. And nevertheless through all the yews of my life and work I
have believed in the following method: Any decision ought to be checked
agianst the opinion of the working people, no matter how one assesses it
oneself. This is a mast important condition for a policy to be right and
for fewer losses and mistakes to be made.
68 When we began perestroyka we saw our society in one light. Having gone
more deeply into it, we began to understand that minor repairs alone,
repainting, a change in wallpaper, will not do. Changes were necessary
everywhere and very serious ones -- in,the economy, in the federation, in
the party, in the soviets, in culture and in the whole spiritual sphere,
with the aim of ennobling society and creating normal living conditions
for people.
69 We have now approached the stage of adopting major decisions. It was for
this reason that I decided to come to you, knowing the potential of the
Urals -- human, intellectual, scientific and cultural. I see this meeting
as support and interpret your opinions fn relation to our policies and to
the actions of the center as an desire to attrack the leadership's
attentions, so that it does not overlook anything serious.
70 It is true that people have not been able to do without demagogy either,
in several conversations. But demagsguesalso---~~kz-asp-o~democr~ey--and- -
even more so than we do. It should, however be the other way around: That
all sensible people in our society should make use of glasnost and
democracy and genuinely take power into their own hands.
71 The party will not be able to achieve the implementation of its policy and
to march in the vanguard of change unless it bases itself upon the working
class. I am greatly alarmed by the fact that 12 workers resigned from the
party today. I would not say: It's the nature of the present time; some
come others leave. I would ask both the works party committee and
ordinary party and works comrades to meet with then and try to understand
what the matter is. The country's leadership is pinning its hopes on an
active contribution by workers into all our affairs. And not merely at
the machine, although I agree with the comrades why say that it's time we
finished with meetings and discussions and started active and productive
work. The discussians will probably continue, but the center of gravity
ought to be shifted to implementing policy in all -pheres. And we are
counting on the support of the working class everywhere.
72 It is a pity that at the elections of USSR and Russian Federation people's
deputies, and even at those to local soviets, many workers have been
squeezed out. To put it frankly: the soviets will only lose from it.
Perhaps they should think of setting up consultative bodies which the most
front-ranking and active workers, faithful to the Cause of the renewal,
would join. Secondly: Give an account to labor collectives of all they
do. Without such a link, neither the soviets will work as they should,
not will the workers be satisfied.
73 We must introduce this kind of a 'correction coefficient,' and also think
about why many workers withdrew their candidacies and refused to
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participate in the pre-election struggle, and ask ourselves whether it was
because it was taking place in such a form that th;s was discouraging from
them. One must learn from this. One mustn't allow the soviets, which to
some extent, I would say, no longer fully represent the working class and
peasantry, to find themselves cut off from life ana from people's real
concerns.
74 LD2704090790TAKE6 -
75 [Excerpts] My main point in my answer on the role of the working class in
the current crucial time is this: If the working class remains apart from
the political processes, or at least does not Lake up an active role,
perestroyka will lose, we will be marking time. I want us to understand
this. More opportunities for the working class to take a more active role
have come into being today. Both the trade unions, the labor collectives
councils and other social and economic mechanisms need to be used so that
the working class may influence everything which now occurs.
76 Further, M.S. Gorbachev answered questions from Uralmash workers.
Answering a question about individual housing construction, he stressed
the necessity to meet people's initiatives halfway in all ways possible
and to give them the maximum help_including.the use of enterprises'
resources. Areal opportunity now exists~to accelerate housing
construction and I have several proposals on this count. I would ask
local bodies to concern themselves with the allocation of land for
individual housing construction. It is also necessary to give land for
gardens and vegetable gardens so that those who wish to, may grow all that
they need for themselves. This has both a social and educative
significance, and a significance in relation to foodstuffs. A man on the
earth, communing with the earth, is -a quite-d-if?er-end .ma:.= - --
77 M.S. Gorbachev read out the following question: "In my view, the open
letter of the CPSU Central Committee on consolidation based on principle,
contradicts the principle expounded in your Lenin speech. This principle
is closer to me as an ordinary party member. I know your style fairly
well thanks to the mass media and it seemed to me ghat you personally did
not participate in the composition of the open letter. Is this so?"
78 I will speak bluntly--I did participate, was the answer. I think,
comrades, we should take into account the concern, to which Communists'
letters to the Central Committee serve as testimony. There are messages
from your works among them as well. Gatherings and conferences express
anxiety about the party's fate and about preparing properly for the
congress so that it can cope with the tasks being placed before it, both
from the point of view of the aims of perestroyka ztnd from the point of
view of strengthening and enhancing the vanguard role of the CPSU.
79 We have taken this in and have tried, as far as possible to express it in
the platform and the draft rules. Perhaps a little more work was needed
but the documents were published so that communists could discuss them,
express critical remarks and go to the congress with good ideas and
proposals which would strengthen the party and give: it a new, attractive
look. And as well, so that communists might feel themselves to be really
in charge in the party.
80 It may be that as yet not everything is working out, but the direction,
the line we have taken is the correct one. We have invited Communists to
come forward with alternative platforms. We are for freedom of thought,
for the juxtaposition of points of view. We have published the
"Democratic Platform," then the "Platform For a Marxist Party"--go ahead,
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comrade Communists, and discuss them!
81 But why were we obliged to write that letter, against what? Communists
were worried by the fact that, instead of consolidation, to all intents
and purposes work had begun to split the party. This was no longer the
struggle of opinions, the juxtaposition of points of view, the search for
the real truth, no longer consolidation but rather an attempt on the eve
of the congress--or perhaps at the Congress itself--to split the party.
At this responsible and crucial stage in the development of the country,
the state and society, we cannot allow the force which is the CPSU to be
put in jeopardy. So the letter is directed against splitters, not against
those who criticize the platform. Incidentally, this document was
distributed to ali Central Committee members and to first secretaries of
kray and oblast committees. They contributed their remarks, and then the
question arose: If someone criticizes the platform and the draft rules,
what then? Should this comrade be removed from the party? If that were
the case we would have had to start with the first secretary of the CPSU
Moscow City Committee Yu.A. Prokofyev, given that ~e voiced some. serious
critical remarks as far back as the Politburo meeting on the draft of the
platform. Of course not!
82 We are talking about people who are heading toward a split. At the
present responsible stage the party cannot fulfil its vanguard role if it
is dragged into a struggle among factions. We are for the consolidation
of all forces -- those on the "Democratic Platform" and those who have
proposed the "Marxist Platform." In juxtaposing all points of view things
.must be done in such a way that the congress is abe to fulfil its task.
83 LD2704091990TAKE7
84 [Excerpts) Replying to a question about--possible-versions of the_
development of events in Lithuania, M.S. Gorbachev said: We hope to arrive
at a political resolution of the problem. But I must say to you and to
the country that we are up.against a leadership which is displaying
adventurism and is speculating on democracy. For, even for the simplest
matters proposals are prepared which are subjected to preliminary
examination in the soviets and are then put forwaru for people to discuss
and it is only after this that decisions are made. Bere, however, in
deciding a basic question of the fate of the republic and of the people
living in it, a question affecting the whole population of our
multinational state -- the deputies assembled at night, raised their hands
and made the decision. This does not come within any framework of
democracy.
85 I think that the Third USSR Congres of Peoples Deputies acted correctly,
and we -- the president and the government -- have only the mandate of the
Congress: The constitutional structure should be restored. It is
necessary to return to the position which existed in the republic on 10
March, and examine the question after this. Otherwise, what will happen?
What will happen to the people who wish to return to their own republics
anon-Lithuanians -- there are about 700,000)? What will be the fate of
the Belorussian lands? Further for 500 years Klaipeda was in German hands
and as a result of the war was transferred to the USSR and, insofar as
Lithuania was a part of the USSR it was united with that republic. Today
the people of Kaliningrad are putting forward the proposal to unite
Klaipeda with their oblast.
86 Finally, how is the oil, raw material, etc. to be paid for? In foriegn
currency? We shall discuss that, too. For the "divorce process" what
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will be needed is first of all a referendum. It is necessary to find out
what people will say, and the Lithuanians are a very sensible people, a
cultured and educated people. Let them give some thought as to which path
to follow. In my opinion there is an increasing number of sober voices
there now. People's thirst for an independent [samostoyatelnyyj
Lithuanian state can also be satisfied within the framework of the
relations of the federation. The important thing :s to tackle all of
these questions in a normal and constitutional form.
87 Thus, we shall not retreat from the mandate of the Third USSR Congres of
Peoples Deputies.
88 A question has come in about the islands of the Kuriles ridge. We have no
superfluous land. We shall adhere to the helsinki positions -- the
recognition of postwar realities, including the inviolability of borders.
There was the following question, too: Does the government study such
phenomena as unidentified flying objects. The presidnet replied that as
far as he was aware there exist scientific collectives engaged in studying
such phenomena.
90 This question came in: Why, in your opinion, does Comrade Yeltsin enjoy
great authority in the Urals and at Uralmash, but not with the
government?"
91 M.S. Gorbachev replied: I have already been asked in the streets what my
attitude is to B.N. Yeltsin. There was the time when I invited the first
secretary of the Sverdlovsk Oblast party committee and Central Committee
member to transfer to work in the Central Committee. We needed somebody
in charge of the construction department, and Comrade Yeltsin, besides his
party experience, had experience of construction, for he is a builder by
education. He agreed and got actively---irvo-l-ved--ln-that-werk:---Them where
the need to tackle the question of the first secretary of the Moscow
committee came up, the choice was for Boris Nikolayevich. I presented him
and recommended him on behalf of the Politburo and tried to support him.
He set about the job ardently at first, but events developed in such a way
that the situation in the city party organization grew tense. In the
summer, when I was on holiday, he raised sharply the question of his
resignation from that post. I said: I'll come back and we'll have a chat.
My afm was simple: to cool passions, so that Comrade Yeltsin could
continue working. But Boris Nikolayevich did not heed this advise and
insisted on being relieved, since he did not want to work in such an
atmosphere. I do not think he had sufficient arguments. It was some kind
of whim, strictly speaking, and that is just how the Central Committee saw
it. But you have read all this -- we published the story of this matter
in full.
92 I was convinced that he had to be kept and I tried to keep this process
within the framework of party democracy and comradely discussion. I
attempted to ask once more how he viewed the observations of comrades.
No, he said firmly, I ask you to relieve me. Well, let it be.
Subsequently I insisted that his experience should be used in a
ministerial post and that he should continue his activity in the Central
Committee.
93 There are all manner of turn-arounds in life. We took account of some of
B.N. Yeltsin's qualities which had already been revealed when he was here
-- you know his style better than I do -- but we thought that the Moscow
party organization and the responsibility would,"grind all that down" and
the excesses would go. That did not happen. Then, in my opinion, he
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chose the course which was not the best and set off on the course of
confrontation.
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95 [Excerpts] What are we getting from him? Nothing except a full dose of
criticism. Well, that is the right of every member of the Central
Committee, and deputy, his right. But it seems to me now that his
potential as a political figure nonetheless is not great. His program and
his speeches are known to me. If they are taken in succession, it is like
an old played-out record, a collection of theses: The leadership is living
out its term, it has exhausted itself, torn itself away from the people
and so on and so forth. If one takes the criticism by itself, it is of
some use, all the same. However, I cannot agree with his indiscriminate
accusations directed toward the leadership of the country, toward the
party and the Central Committee.
96 What he touches upon requires serious political analysis. Whfle remaining
principled, critical, demanding, one must behave responsibly oneself.
Boris Nikoalyevich is speculating upon the difficulties, upon the
socioeconomic tension. Ali that does exist, but one can and must act in
order to draw lessons, to turn the matter round, and not speculate upon
the difficulties from demagogic positions. I think that here, Boris
Nikolayevich has got carried away and is not at al.~ able to get off this
destructive track.
97 Of course, you understand; That it is only because I am in Sverdlovsk and
you are asking me about it that I have given such a detailed reply. On
the whole, I have never delved deep into these discussions, I do not like
them. Today, we need to get things done, not engage in slogans and
promises. I think probably something-should-bead-abou-t-privi-loges ~ We
ought to get to the point where there are no illegal privileges. There
should be dust one privilege: That labor, talent, ~,osition and merit
should all be valued, but on the basis of law. In this connection we have
already resolved a great deal. I know that both in your region and
throughout the country these problems -- concerning private residences and
all manner of "special benefits" -- are being resolved.
98 In Hoscow, as far back as the time of the Civfl War, Lenin and the
country's top leadership were provided with state lachas. In the thirties
the system was given legal status through appropriate decisions. This was
done to fix the leadership's salaries at a certain level, so that they
would not differ sharply from those of workers, officials or the
intelligentsia. Salaries for Politburo members and for secretaries of the
CPSU Central Committee were R800, but in conjunction with this it was
possible to order provisions up to a value of R400. And there were a
number of other concessions. Now we have handed over all the dachas: In
one case to veterans, in another for children, in a. third case for medical
purposes, in a fourth for holiday homes.
99 From now on all this will be decided at the Supreme Soviet, as is the case
in all states. As far as the top two or three peo;~le are concerned, the
Supreme Soviet will have to pass an official decision on what level of
salary to set and what conditions are attached, and then publish this
information for everyone to know. The main criter;.on is that everything
should be assessed in terms of salary, and from there on one lives as the
rest of the country lives.
100 Now we have got as far as personal pensions and personal transport. This
all needs to be thought through. I shall tell you frankly: We are of a
 000175690
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mind to impose strict order.
101 What should be the state's first concern? Particularly deserving people
-- veterans, regardless of whether they are party iuembers or not -- and
families with many children. Much has already been done in these six
months. This work has proved to be not simple. The fact is that the
system of privileges is to be found practically everywhere. For example,
all~the creative unions build holiday homes. And what is the situation in
manufacturing industry? Industrial workers themselves have earned the
money to build their own social facilities. At Uralmash, let's say, who
makes use of the holiday homes, the convalescent homes or the hunting
lodges or whatever -- is it all the workers or only the bosses? In other
words, are there privileges here too or not? People argue over this. And
I think: Let them argue. _
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103 [Excerpts] The main criterion is the same: Everything should be evaluated
according to the labor contribution of each person -- worker, peasant,
member of the intelligentsia, scientist, cultural worker and state
official.
104 Now, if you will permit me I shall say a few words about the allegations
that Gorbachev has an account in a Swiss bank and pays his royalties into
it. I must disappoint those who love rumors: All of my royalties go into
the party funds. This includes the royalties for the book "Restructuring
and the New Thinking For Our Country and For the Whole World," which has
been published in many countries. I put a million rubles into the party
funds and did not take one kopeck for myself. I sent R350,000 to .Irkutsk
Children's Hospital, handed 100,000 dollars to the Russian Children's
Clinical Hospital for very sick child-ren-Raises-Maksmovna-acts--as-patron
of that hospital and helps it to develop in such a way that children from
all over the country can receive highly qualified help here. R50,000 has
been paid to the Culture Fund, R200,000 for the Terkin monument, R150,000
to Armenfa for the victims of the earthquake, 850,000 to refugees from
Azerbaijan. Royalties for that book are still coming in. What I do with
them you can see from this "account" that I have given.
105 And, of course, there are no bank accounts in existence anywhere. It is
demeaning and simply shameful even to reply to these fabrications. It
pains me as a person that at times people stoop to such a vulgar level of,
literally, narrow-mindedness, using such clumsy fabrications for political
ends.
106 Many serious issues in urgent need of resolution have accumulated in our
country. And it is necessary to approach all of them in a responsible
manner.
107 But the main thing is to show, from the example of our vast country, that
socialism is capable of carrying out deep transformations within the
framework of democracy and legality. It is necessary to do everything to
avoid confrontation in society and even more so to avoid civil war,
violence, illegality and arbitrary actions. The rule of law must prevail.
No more organizing of witch-hunts or sowing of hatred in the quest for an
enemy must be permitted.
108 Can the fate of Russia lie in this? Can one arrive at a democratic and
humane socialism via new lawlessness? No! I am convinced that in our
country we must do everything in a good way. What is needed is patience
and restraint. Some people make this appeal to me: Mikhail Sergeyevich,
bang your fist! Others say: Give the order to strike at the headquarters!
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Dear comrades, we are developing?the democratic process and the
construction of a law- based state so-that the people, themselves, should
decide all the very important questions via the institutions of democracy
and democratic processes in the party. But to strike with one's fist
means failing to escape from the vicious circle.
109 We must become a civilized country. That is what our peoples, who have
suffered so much and have done so much for history and for the entire
world, are worthy of. After all, without our socialist contribution the
world would be different today.
110 And now, if perestroyka is victorious, there will be an entirely different
world. If we lose -- even though I think that we won't lose, simply our
path may turn out to be more or less painful -- the world will change for
the worse. I know for a fact that you will no longer return our people to
the old life and you won't shut them up. The oxygen which our society has
received as a result of democratization and openness is what our people
and each person needs.
111 That path of changes on such a scale is difficult, not everything succeeds
as planned. And we make errors, and we endure them, we endure them in a
human way. But there is no return to the past, our people have already
gone through too much for them to be muzzled again. Indeed they
themselves will not permit this. That is the main thing which I would
like to say in conclusion. I hope dear Uralmash workers, that you
maintain your reputation at a high level and maintain your character.
Without you the country cannot live, just as you cannot live without the
country. And in this spirit of mutual understanding let's part. I wish
you great success, we will help one another also in future! (Applause)
112 LD2704104190TAKE10 - _~______ __ ____
113 [Excerpts] Perestroyka is, first and foremost, the individual and concern
for his vital needs. It is not by chance that the attention of M.S.
Gorbachev, who on Thursday continued his visit to Sverdlovsk, was drawn to
the blocks of the country's first youth housing complex. [passage
omitted: the housing shortage is a serious problem for the country] The
problem of foodstuffs in the country, including the Urals, is as acute.
How can it be solved most quickly in the interests of Soviet people? This
was the subject of a conversation between the USSR president and shoppers
and sales people in one of the city's supermarkets.
114 M.S. Gorbachev was interested to know which foodstuffs and goods it was
possible to buy, and what presented particular difficulties. The people
complained in particular about the lack of fruit. Here the line is as
follows, M.S. Gorbachev said: The city should have enough storehouses and
conclude agreements about deliveries from southern republics. There will
be no other means. It's not good that there is no reliable center for
storing fruit and vegetables in Sverdlovsk. It is not good for such a
city to live on handouts on what's being supplied to it. I know
storehouses are being built here, but evidently things are progressing
slowly.
115 On Sverdlovsk's main square -- named after the 1905 revolution -- the USSR
president and CPSU Central Committee general secretary laid flowers at the
V.I. Lenin statue. A conversation with war and labor veterans on the.
glorious traditions of the Urals and on the valor and loyalty to their
homeland of its sons and daughters.
116 I cordially greet you, dear veterans, Mikhail Sergeyevich addressed them,
especially on the eve of the 45th anniversary of the great victory. The
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whole country is preparing to give the generation which did everything to
defend our life, freedom. and ideals, its due.
117 N.I. Mikhailova-Gagarina, a veteran of the airborne assault troops,
entered the conversation. We are proud of what we have lived through, she
said, noticeably nervous. We thank the state for its care of us. Mikhail
Sergeyevich answered: The optimism, confidence and calmness of the
veterans always attracts me. [passage omitted: Veteran says that the CPSU
must remain united]
118 We need, M.S. Gorbachev said, to renew society and more fully open up the
possibilities of the socialist system and increase the party's authority
by deeds. And we will certainly preserve our ideas and spiritual values,
we will carry the banner of our cause high.
119 For how do some people act: They, it seems, are in favor of the renewal
process but are ready to throw out the baby, as they say, with the bath
water, and are prepared to reject socialism. We ourselves, of course,
must investigate our party base. If someone has decided to act
differently today, let him act as his conscience allows. But we must go
to the congress consolidated.
120 M.S. Gorbachev approached another group of citizens who wanted to know the
president's point of view on the problems of forming a market economy in
the country and his opinion on the draft laws being prepared and the means
for improving the economy. There was a detailed a:.d frank conversation on
these themes.
121 One of the questions, outside of the general framework, went like this:
Why are talks not being conducted with Lithuania?
122 -- We conduct talks with other states -- Mikhail Sergeyevich answered --
but we consider Lithuania a Soviet -re~ubli~ -~~yau remember *hp 4uest3nn______
was put precisely in this way at the Third USSR Congress of People's
Deputies. And you and I, in the face of the Congress decisions, are in an
identical situation.
123 LD2704111190TAKB11
124 [Excerpts] The Urals has from time immemorial forged weapons for the
defense of the homeland. A powerful defense potential has ben created
here. The new political thinking born of perestroyka has allowed the
country to reorient a considerable proportion of the capacities of the
defense complex to production of purely peaceful output.
125 An exhibition of consumer goods set out at one of the enterprises which is
undergoing conversion, the Urals Electro-Mechanical Works, shows how this
difficult process is proceeding. M.S. Gorbachev looked around the
exhibition.
126 He assessed the creative work of the engineers, designers, and workers by
whose efforts high-quality competitive civilian products are being
produced.
127 As the saying goes, there are goods and goods. It is very important, the
president of the USSR noted, to use the great intellectual and technical
potential of the defense sector to obtain output of the hightest category.
The exhibition displays the most modern models of medical apparatus,
household electronics, and video equipment. It was emphasized in the
conversation that it was important for these items to be put into mass
production more quickly and that they should become not just exhibition
display items but goods which everyone can buy.
128 A detailed dialogue about the problems being tackled by Soviet scientists
and about the development of the scientific potential and of the Urals
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took place at the Institute of Metals Physics of the Urals Scientific
Center.
129 Leading representatives of virtually all branches of science had assembled
here for the meeting with the USSR president.
130 Opening the meeting, G.A. Mesyats, chairman of the Presidium of the Urals
Scientific Center and vice-president of the USSR Academy of Sciences,
dwelt in detail on the main activities of the Urals branch of the Academy,
which now unites 38 scientific institutions, special design bureaux for
scientific instrument making, and a number of engineering centers.
131 The majority of those who took part in the exchange of views drew
attention to problems of the development of fundamental science, having
noted the need to raise its prestige, renew the material base, and
strengthen higher educational establishments. In particular, it was
pointed out that the interests of the development of fundamental science
and the results of the introduction of market principles in the economy
are now entering into a contradiction. A firm legislative base, which
removes this tendency, is necessary, the speakers believe.
132 It was said also that the scientists' limited opportunities for developing
international contacts is one of the factors restraining progress in
science and research.
133 Addressing the meeting, M.S. Gorbachev said in particular: I profess the
following point of view. In politics there would be fewer mistakes,
policy well-grounded, real, and effective, if it rested on scientific
knowledge. A scientific prediction of our advance is especially topical
in the Urals, in a region which plays an immense role in the development
of the productive forces of the entire country. The Urals have taken on
too many of the country's worries dung"-fhe years~l-iaf-were i icu~#ox
it, for us to continue exploiting it today without thinking of anything
apart from increasing capacities and labor resources.
134 In this hall I have heard much that is useful and interesting, M.S.
Gorbachev stressed. Now, according to him, is precisely the moment for
everyone together to think soundly about things, including the question of
how it came to pass that such a Oblast, has found itself with such old
capital stock.
135 Responding to the addresses by the scientists, M.S. Gorbachev noted that
he shares their concern over the state and fate of fundamental science in
the Soviet Union.
136 The president replied to questions by participants in the meeting
concerning both problems of scientific and technical progress and the
realities of today's socio-political situation in the country.
137 In the evening a meeting between representatives of the working people of
Sverdlovsk oblast, party, war and labor veterans and M.S. Gorbachev took
place in the Youth Palace.
13$ The participants in the meeting were addressed by M.S. Gorbachev. The
address will be published in the press. (endall) X61222
27/1307z apr
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