'THE TIME IS FAVORABLE...' A CONVERSATION WITH A PRIEST OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH

• Document Type: FOIA
• Keywords: UFO SPECIAL COLLECTION
• Collection: FOIA Collection
• Document Number (FOIA) /ESDN (CREST): 0005517515
• Release Decision: RIFPUB
• Original Classification: U
• Document Page Count: 19
• Document Creation Date: June 24, 2015
• Document Release Date: January 31, 2011
• Case Number: F-2010-00651
• Publication Date: July 8, 1988

000175647
Concatenated JPRS Reports, 1989
Document 2 of 3
Classification:
UNCLASSIFIED
Status:
Document Date:
08 Jul 88
Category:
Report Type:
JPRS Report
Report Date:
Report Number:
JPR5-USS-89-004
UDC Number:
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[STAY]
[CAT]
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Author(s): SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA deputy chief editor
Gennadiy Batygin; time and place not specif?ed]
Headline: `The Time Is Favorable...' A Conversation with a Priest of
the Russian Orthodox Church
Source Line: 18060002 Moscow SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYEISSLEDOVANIYA in
Russian No 4, Jul-Aug 88 (signed to press 8 Jul 88) pp
38-49
Subslug: [Interview with Innokentiy, candidate of theology, teacher
at the Leningrad Seminary for Monastic Priests, by
SOTSIOLOGICHESKIYE IS5LEDOVANIYA deputy chief editor
Gennadiy Batygin; time and place not specified]
FULL TEST OF ARTICLE:
1. [Text] In 1988 at the initiative of UNESCO, not only Christians
but also people of various religious and political convictions mark
the millennium of the Christianization of Russia (988-1988). This
date is is propitious occasion for thinking--read-s~t-n.-~y-abou~~he- -
problems of religious life in the. USSR. As is known, the basic
principles and practice of its state regulation were established in
circumstances that were most unfavorable for realism. This is
exactly why up to now it has been very difficult to eli~.inate the
??zone of silence " that has existed here and to call a spade a
spade. A mutual desire to deal with this complexity was expressed at
the meeting between CPSU Central Committee General Secretary M.S.
Gorbachev and the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, Pimen, and
members of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.
2. Public interest is growing in questions of the interrelationship
between religion and culture, ethics and politics. Under the
conditions of glasnost and the open clash of viewpoints, a
re-evaluation of the cultural-historical legacy is taking place and
new hopes are being barn. A dialogue on these problems is held by
doctor of philosophical sciences, deputy chief editor of
SOTSIOLOGICHE5KIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA, Gennadiy Batygin and candidate of
theology, teacher at the Leningrad Seminary for Monastic Priests,.
Innokentiy.
3. [Batygin] Your Reverence, first of alI I would like to say a few
words about why I asked you to hold this conversation. "lien I was
still a student in the philosophy faculty at the Moscow State
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University I, and the overwhelming majority of my fellow students,
and perhaps even the teachers, had only.a quite vague idea about
priests in the church. The view of priests as tricksters and
disseminators of spiritual narcotics, a unique kind of "spiritual
raw brandy " --a view traditional for the proclaimed ideological
stereotypes--could be clearly discerned in this vagueness. This idea
prevented us from any dialogue with you in the press. For a long time
an invisible but quite rigid line of prohibition was drawn between
me, a sociologist, and you, a pastor of the Russian Orthodox Church.
It also seemed to me that you were separated not only from the state
but also from the usual life of laymen, or at-least tha*. you had no
contact with our daily problems. Only once did I think about this
line, when the now late Valentin Ferdinandovich Asmus, the teacher of
my teachers, for some reason put aside his exercise boot's and talked
to us, the second-year students, about the meaning of the words
"Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." The meaning of the
words from the Sermon on the Mount has not been reduced and it set
down roots through the millennia. And each day, including today, we
face the eternal problems. One of them is the search for truth. In
this regard our dialogue today is extremely topical and essential for
the process of renewal, because apart from anything else, renewal
also means a return to values that are eternal but subject to doubt.
Dialogue is essential for joining the strength of believers and
non-believers in solving urgent, and vital. question. And we have many
believers in the country-- from 15 percen~o -bE~-percent -of---the___ _ ____._._._
population in various regions.
4. Today, in the atmosphere of glasnost and democratization we .are
learning to deal with voluntarist stereotypes that have compelled us
not only to accept the inevitable as the reality but also pretend
that many of the processes that do not fit into the ideological mold
of the "new man" somehow do not exist at all. This also applies in
full to the reproduction of religious values--the so-called
individual vestiges. I think that we rightly talk about the
coexistence of a religious culture and a secular culture in Soviet
society, and a diversity of types of perceptions of the world--a
diversity that cannot be reduced to some scheme of "the scientific
and the nonscientific." How can this very complex sociological
problem be resolved? First and foremost by not dramatizing the
differences in views that are well known and by seeking out what it
is that unites us. And what unites us is responsibility for the
future, the desire to preserve the cultural heritage, and belief in
the need to renew life and general human spiritual values.
5. The restructuring is not easy. Even recently, when the editorial
office of the journal SOTSIOLOGICH$SKIYE ISSLEDOVANIYA asked you to
enter into discussion with the well-known American Sovietologists and
religious expert William Fletcher about believers in the USSR, it was
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terrible for me: what might happens The stereotype of `cavalry "
propaganda--with bells. onl-- enrooted in the consciousness hampers
us: believers and church people are either stupid or have unseemly
designs. Soviet people should know that the church is separated from
the state but not separated from society. In this connection your
view on sociological problems in the spiritual life of our fellow
citizens and your position as a theological scholar, historian and
simply a man are of undoubted interest.
6. [Innokentiy] Forgive me, but the last-named position seems to me
to be perhaps the one that is most suitable for this kind of
dialogue. Any "churchman," "theological scholar " or "historian "
in our country lives in the same social conditions as any person. As
a citizen he is subject to the same legal standards and social laws.
Perhaps the "proud stare of the foreigner " of an American
Sovietologist would not catch this, but for us this should be
obvious.
7. With regard to the "stereotype of cavalry propaganda," for you,
a sociologist, it is no secret what its influence has been on the
shaping of the intellectual climate and ideological standards. At
least your early ideas about us, the clerics of the Russian Orthodox
Church, bore, I would say, the veneer of a certain romanticism, and
the propaganda to which you refer could hardly have courted on that.
In fact, the alluring prospect was separate from the ~ust~ and
bustle of this world. But as you rightly noted, an invisible but
quite rigid line of prohibition was in fact drawn between us. It
exists even now in the consciousness of many, including quite
respected people. A more critical look at the line between the
"permitted " and the "banned " will, I hope, help in some degree to
place in its proper perspective the question of freedom of choice and
assessment of the cultural legacy.
8. [Batygin] You mentioned freedom. F. Engels wrote that free will
is the ability to make decisions from a position of knowledge. But it
would seem that people have different knowledge and a different
perception of exactly the same realities of life. There are probably
even people today who would like to force you to abandon your
religious convictions and enforce a "materialistic truth." And not
at all because religiosity, which "has still not been overcome,"
interferes with their lives; they are obsessed with concern for what
is near and dear to them, its "ideological maturity," and
ultimately, "all-around and harmonious development."
9. Here we are not dealing only with religion. We ofte:. encounter an
alternative postulation, as, for example, one that is far from being
a private issue: are you for perestroyka or against it? This kind of
open and naive sociologism seems to be generally radical and
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testifies to the revolutionary intentions of the questioner. The
trouble is that almost everyone is for perestroyka... Including those
who are for coercive assertion of the "ideal." I have a cause for
complaint: I read in one newspaper that there is no .class struggle in
our country, nor, consequently, class enemies, but in numerous
commentaries I have been categorized as an enemy of the people, and
there have been demands for my repression. Is this also today's
method of polemic? Again we see how the destructive forces. are
growing, how some people want to find "the enemy," ho~~ they try to
exhume from the underground the ideology of pogrom.
10. We have become accustomed to living by creating within ourselves
a wordy mythical set of scenery and we fear to look there behind the
scenery bathed in artificial light, into the shadow cast by the
scenery, into the unlighted and gloomy space where we find the
"kitchen " of the play being performed: into the semi-darkness quite
different from the nuances of the producer and the technical and
rhetorical equipage. Now it is becoming obvious that we are
simultaneously the audience and the actors in this spectacle of life,
and that it serves no purpose to point the finger at anyone. The
devil often turns up behind the most desperate "fighter."
11. However, the process of renewal is irreversible. The link of
time is being restored and we are beginning to look into history for
the real causes of human tragedy. A re-eva~uatlon-o?~ra~ues-is~-taking---____________._
place, including the values of the past, and it is difficult and
painful. Obviously this is the way it should be: memory is ambiguous;
it depends on what we want to see in the past and on the kind of
intellectual and moral baggage with which we move into the past.
12. (Innokentiy] When. preparing our students at the theological
schools in the Moscow Patriarchy, for a number of historical reasons
the task of giving them a serious philosophical training has not been
brought up. Therefore although you recalled the definition of free
will, what came to mind for me was a definition of freedom in
general, one that I heard from one of the church bishops at a recent
international scientific conference in Mascow on problems of theology
and spirituality devoted to the millennium of the Christianization of
Russian "Freedom is an attitude of perfect love betwee:~ two beings,
between God and us." In this context talk about class enemies is
hardly apropos. Why cannot the break in the link with time be
restored by human hands? The real reasons for human tragedies are now
clear to many, and perhaps they were earlier.
13. Xou talk about the irreversibility of the renewal of life in our
country. Here, it would seem that boundless prospects are being
opened up for the unsophisticated gaze. Just the mere formulation
" re-evaluating the cultural-historical legacy " is worth it. For a
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desire to look at the past in and of itself imposes an "intellectual
and ethical baggage." You have probably recently been nearing, even
when standing in line, about the "permanent value of the cultural
legacy." T suspect that no none, including people with a "higher
education," can provide a clear definition of these coi,cepts.
14. Tt is as if everything were intuitively clear. I recall the shy
servant Ivan Ivanovich Brilliantov, who late in the last century made
known the long-since closed and almost deserted Ferapontov monastery.
He not only drew attention to our ecclesiastical, historical and
cultural holy things but in 1918 even traveled there from Petrograd
so as to continue the work on its restoration despite everything.
15. The priests Pavel Florenskiy and Mikhail Shik; and Count Yu.A.
Olsufev. We have no right to forget their role in the preservation of
the Troitsa-Sergiyev Monastery. Professor I.Ye. Yevseyev of the
Petrograd Theological Academy, who sponsored a scientific publication
of the Slavic Bible and raised the question of a more perfect Russian
translation of it. Academician N.K. Nikolskiy, who as long ago as
1902 embarked on the titanic work of preparing a collection of the
works of Russian writers since ancient times. If historical
circumstances made it possible to accomplish merely the undertakings
mentioned, the question of the cultural legacy would be clearer for
16. However, this does not at all mean that in our times our culture
does not have its devotees. Thus, for example, Marina Sergeyevna
Serebryakova and her associates are heroically preserving the
Cathedral of Our Lady in Vologda Oblast, with?its frescoes of
Dionysius--the only complete architectural and artistic ensemble
dating from the 15th century.
17. The conference that I mentioned, which was attended not only by
theologians but also philologists and historians from scientific
centers abroad and from Moscow University and the USSR Academy of
Sciences, showed that the tasks of preserving monuments of Russian
national and general human importance can be resolved despite the
obvious historical losses.
18. But let us return to the theme of "prohibition." For the
"line of prohibition " that you mentioned passed through the
consciousness of many, and it now passes not only through the
environment of social relations but also the field of spiritual
relations. Here we are dealing with an unambiguous division between,
if I may expresses it thus, "the sheep and the goats,' typical both
of a certain genre of atheistic studies of religion and of certain
popular works on the history of ancient Russian literature and the
arts. What I have in mind is the division between religious content
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19. [Batygin] But this is obvious to many people. In the secular
literature it is accepted that we distinguish between the icon as a
cult object and as an artistic image. For example, the Vladimir
"Devotion to the Virgin Mary " icon in the Tretyakov Gallery. They
say that the icon exhibited there ,represents an esthetic, and only an
esthetic, value.~Of course, for an understanding of the esthetic
value of the "Devotion " it is necessary to be aware of the
symbolism of the icon. At least it is essential to be able to
distinguish between the "Devotion " and the " Oranta. "
20. [Innokentiy] Well, this is simple. What is not understood is
something else: how can the religious content of works of
ecclesiastical art be torn away and the perception of its esthetic
form retained? And if you call to mind the iconography ~f.the Holy
Mother, permit me to note that the only argument cited in the
literature in favor of this kind of division is that the
representation is " as if alive." That is a11! I do not see any
serious grounds for so categorical a division between the religious
and the esthetic. Depending on your convictions, you may believe, for
example, in the "phenomenalism " of the icon and cross yourself or
simply experience a shock from its inner depth. But in any event it
is essential to understand the meaning instated in the :hole work,
without reservations of the "on the one-fiand=.-andon -the-o-ther---------------
hand..." type. Unfortunately, the revival of interest in the culture
of the past here is being combined with a horrifying lack of
knowledge about the elementary questions of doctrine and religious
practice.
21. [Batygin] There can be no doubt that we should all know as much
as possible about the history of our own people. Intellectual
darkness and ignorance, of course, can become a basis for atheism,
but who needs this kind of atheism? If orthodoxy is our traditional
doctrine we must have an adequately complete idea about its dogma and
religious practice. However, Islam, 3udaism, Catholicism, a number of
Protestant denominations, Buddhism, and Shamanism also exist in the
USSR, and no one would be hindered from learning about them at what
might be called first hand rather. than just from the "Atheist's
Handbook." Yes, I have in mind freedom to teach and st4dy religion,
which is not banned by Soviet law. Sihat is banned is another matter.
Without going into the niceties of the legislation on cults--and
there are many "niceties " here--let me say that we are still not
observing full glasnost in this sphere.
22. I would like to touch on another subject about which they prefer
to remain silent. Sooner or later death comes to every person. Many
people have a materialistic attitude toward this but there are people
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who need confession, even if only for consolation. Attempts to talk
seriously about replacing the words of a pastor with some greater
effectiveness for some ritual service seem to me cynical.
23. However, the main thing promoting the elimination of the "line
of prohibition " is possession of information. No prohibitions on
knowledge are in line with the legal establishments of civilized
society, but our need for knowledge about religion is very great.
This can be seen from the great demand for books that provide a
scientific description of religious doctrine, hopefully without
commentaries that are insulting for believers and unpleasant to read
even for a person with no religious convictions. I happened to
encounter a certain variety of coercive-- phantasmagoric!--blasphemy.
Glued into a book of quotations from Holy Scripture... Here it-was,
the "wiles of history " ! The quotations cut from books that are the
apotheosis of senseless cynicism triumphant--Leo Taksil's "The Bible
for Laughs " and "The Gospel for Laughs." Truly they know not what
they do.
2k. We find the sources of the Russian literary tradition in
Metropolitan Ilarion's "The Word of the Law and Heaven." Why then
today, when the recreation of our cultural legacy is taking place by
moving toward truth and life is the Bible--the book that mankind has
held in reverence for millennia (and today in many countries in the
world oaths are sworn on the Bible, and not-~t-~1 out -ref-- -
naivete)--if not banned here, then in extremely short supply? What if
its content is far remote from dialectical materialism and historical
materialism. What if someone does not accept that the Ward is
divinely inspired; a person reading even a small part of it must
experience the illumination of true light, that state of
"trepidation " (I use the words of S.S. Averintsev, spoken by him
with respect to a contemporary "rethinking" of the topic of the
Gospels) that arises when one is concerned with a miracle. I am
convinced that despite the shifts that have been planned, the problem
remains what might be called painful. The Bible is essential not only
for the millions of believers but for any person of culture.
25. Confessing a faith is another matter. This is a matter of
personal choice and freedom of conscience. The issue is quite clear
to me. No one, even less today, bans the study of doctrine and the
history of religion. At least our and your generations do not
remember the times when churches were being destroyed.
26. [Innokentiy] But the issue is not clear to me. Here you have a
newspaper cutting on your desk. Let me read the ABC that reminded me
of my own candidness. The author writes that the people should know
their own history, their own heroes. Then he points out the
directions of social thinking that "they understand " differently.
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Here: "The fourth direction (for myself, let me add: I as a
Christian and an Orthodox theologian follow this direction) unearths
and restores the old Orthodox times. Not only what is artistically
beautiful (on which there is no argument, it is essential) but
everything Orthodox, `sacred.' And for this we count from 1917. It
really was a turning point, including for the `sacred'; it really did
`cut the ground away' from under the `sacred.' And if Orthodoxy is
regarded as our history then, yes, this history was indeed cut away
from under, and rightly so." This was written not in the years of
repression but today, in the period of perestroyka.
27. Forgive me for such an extensive quote, .but I want to show you
that. the "ideology of cutting the ground away " is alsc, well known
to our generation. As if someone has a supreme prerogative to show
people what can be "unearthed " in history and what cannot, a
prerogative to sort out the historical past into the "beautiful "
and the "old Orthodox times."
28. Here is another example testifying at least to the lack of
understanding of religious culture. Early this year the draft
"Provisions on Procedure for Publishing Books, Brochures and
Publications by Authors " was published. To some it seems a bold
step in the direction of democratization. But see how deeply the
stereotypes have eaten into the consciousness. The author cannot use
his own facilities to publish books " propagandizing war,-v o ence,
national dissension, racial or national exclusivity, or
religious-mystical doctrines at variance with the principles of
communist morality and ethics." This list speaks for itself through
the commas. Religious-philosophical literature is set side by side
with works at variance with constitutional principles. The present
Constitution permits absolutely all citizens to confess their own
faith and religious propaganda (despite a~widely held opinion) is
nowhere banned by present legislation. But freedom for atheistic
propaganda has long since become the "talk of the town. "
29. [Batygin] Permit me, but various religious organizations have
the opportunity to make use of state printing houses...
30. [Innokentiy] And have you seen many publications put out by
religious organizations, or tried to acquire them?
31. [Batygin] I saw the church calendar in your office, but I have
not tried to acquire a Bible, or rather "get hold " of one from a
speculator.
32. [Innokentiy] Meanwhile the publishing section of the Moscow
Patriarchy has no opportunity to provide Orthodox Christians even
with a church calendar.
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33. However, let us return to the question of question the Russian
spiritual legacy. We have dwelled on the fact that we do have
scholars, laymen and church people devoted to the cause of preserving
the monuments of history. Interest in ancient Russian is growing in
the consciousness of the people. You have on your bookshelf a
beautifully bound, compact and inexpensive edition of the "Trinity "
anthology compiled by G.I. Vzdornov-- the highest achievement of
ancient Russian art. Thank God that there is not so much foreign text
as in similar publications.
34. No, I am in no way against propaganda of our art abroad. But it
is quite obvious that it is primarily the Russian ,people who should
be given broad access to their own history and culture. Do what you
will, it is still impossible to separate the lofty beauty of the
"Trinity " --the icons--from the idea of the Divine Trinity. Permit
me to open the book acid read one piece: "The image determines the
balance found between the soul and the spirit, the flesh and
ethereality, feeling and thought, life and death, suffering and the
passionless, eternal and immortal existence in heaven. And because of
its amazing multiple layers, equaled nowhere else, Rublev's `Trinity'
has been and remains equally arresting both for the theological
scholar and for the ordinary person who looks in it far an image of
consolation when building his own life."
35. [BatyginJ Obviously no one has the right to dictate to a person
the method whereby he perceives cultural values. He must also take
up freedom of choice, and responsibility for his own position in
life. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it is much easier and simpler to
exist in an atmosphere of rigid prohibitions and proscriptions, in an
atmosphere in which there is no burden of choice, and hence no
responsibility to one's own conscience and to people. "Authorized
freedom " frees us of responsibility. If it is said that ancient
orthodoxy is bad then there is no need to think or doubt: "cutting
the ground from under one's feet"